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Featured Identifying the 144,000

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Deeje, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a site from former JWs.
     
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    (My computer somehow messed up my edit)
    @ecco :
    Quick example: some believe the Planet Earth will be destroyed by fire, because of 2 Peter 3:7,10.
    But Ecclesiastes 1:4 states "the Earth abideth forever."

    "A contradiction!" Is it?....

    Genesis 11:1 says, "All the Earth was one language, and of one set of words." Here the Earth is obviously referring to people, not the planet.
    Same understanding can be applied to 2 Peter 3.

    Studying the Bible's entire context, will help in determining its meaning. And aid in wading through all the 'cherry-picking.'

    This is nothing I discovered on my own...I was taught this procedure, and I've never been misled since I adopted this habit, over 35 years ago.

    Study never stops...Jehovah's Word is full of enlightening truths!
     
  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I was trying to make the point that the fire of the literal gehenna no longer burned, yet what it burned no longer exists. By the same token the lake of fire will burn till all is consumed, and there is no need for it to burn any longer. The RESULTS of it burning are everlasting, not the fire itself.
     
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  4. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    I think most rational people reading a primer on astronomy, written by men will come to pretty close the same conclusions as to the meaning of the material.

    On the other hand, people reading God's bible cannot agree on even the most basic aspects of its author(s) or it's content:
    Who wrote the OT?
    Who wrote MMLJ?
    How long ago did God create the universe?
    Did God make Adam & Eve, or is that just allegory?
    Did God horrifically drown almost all the people in the world or is that just a morality tale?

    But you will continue to refuse to see the difference because it suits your agenda.


    What 'anti-biblical' material do you suppose I study? Are you referring to books on evolution, plate tectonics, astronomy? I haven't seen anything in any of those books where the authors state they are anti-biblical. In fact, the authors of most of those books are Christians. Christians who have picked and chosen to take much of the bible as allegory.

    Perhaps you are referring to books by biblical scholars who, following years of research, have come to the conclusion that "Matthew, Mark, Luke & John" did not write the Gospels.

    The help you are talking about is precisely why millions of Christians all have different ideas about what scripture means. There are 30,000 - 40,000 Christian denominations, all believing differently. Of all those different denominations, the vast majority would say yours is not even a Christian denomination.

    So much for "help" that only believers get.


    You will probably consider my comments above to be just more of an atheist's insults, but you can't dispute any of it.

    Convince? Never. It takes much more than exchanges in a forum to overcome years of indoctrination.


    If you consider my comments to be nothing more than my raining on your parade, why do you address comments to me and elicit my responses?

    If, as you believe, I can convince no one, how am I robbing anyone of hope for a better future?

    On the other hand, you make promises about eternal life when, in the final analysis, that is nothing more than your opinion.
     
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  5. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Following all that study and humility on the part of tens of thousands of Christians, they have all come to different understandings of The Truth.

    Or do you want to say that only your study and your humility (and that of people who agree with you) came to The Right Truth?
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As Hockeycowboy has said, is there some reason why you would consult an apostate website for the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses? Would I consult an enemy of yours to ascertain the truth about your character? It is so easy to twist the truth to condemn without the accused being able to defend their position. This is especially true of "ex's" with an axe to grind. This is why a court has to hear both sides of an issue before a judgment is made. o_O

    We see Matthew 24:45 as important in determining who and what to believe, especially at this time in history.

    “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

    This is Jesus speaking about a "slave" in his household appointed to "feed" all of the other slaves, their "food at the proper time". In framing his identity as a question, it is obvious that he would not be easily identifiable. It would be in his ability to serve that food as spiritual nourishment that would make "him" known. The household would be spiritually healthy, united as a global brotherhood and at peace, even in a world that has lost its way. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    2 Peter 3:11-14....
    11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
    14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace."

    This is what we should see in those who have Christ's backing.

    The "faithful slave" is not a literal individual person, but a body of men, chosen for the same reason as Jesus chose 12 apostles. In all of the NT scriptures not all of the apostles contributed to scripture. Yet all were equal in their assignment.
    Peter was told by Jesus to 'feed his sheep', yet Peter was not elevated above the other apostles. All 12 form the foundation of God's Kingdom with Jesus Christ as King. (Revelation 21:14)

    We believe that the evidence speaks for itself. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect people and nothing is as God originally intended because of the intervention of satan and his hordes. But just as Jesus appointed flawed humans as his apostles, he has also appointed flawed humans as his present day servants on earth. He had no choice in this. Any who expect perfection will be disappointed. But despite their imperfections, our brothers on the governing body have achieved amazing things. Because we stick to the Bible as our final authority, we have no dissension in our ranks and we have a unity of purpose that is demonstrated in every nation on earth as we follow the command of Jesus to preach the "good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as our primary activity. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-14; Acts of the Apostles 20:20)

    We do not take this commission as optional, but as a command that is expected to be obeyed by the one who gave the assignment. Since Jesus said he would back this work; we don't see any other organization of Christians who can provide evidence that they are fulfilling this commission. It wasn't about sending missionaries to far flung places, but like Jesus and his apostles, they take this message to their neighbors.

    So yes, for us, the evidence speaks for itself....
     
    #146 Deeje, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  7. cataway

    cataway Active Member

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    oh but some do read it saying its to be understood literally. beyond me why
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Apparently atheists cannot see something that is in plain sight to any who have really been enlightened by the Bible's teachings...this requires something from God.....his holy spirit. The scriptures themselves are used to separate the sheep from the goats...the wheat from the weeds. This includes those who claim to be Christians but who by their conduct and accepted beliefs, belie that claim. A Christian is not identified by what they say, but according to how closely they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. He covers this in Matthew 7:21-23.....there are "many" that he has never recognized as his own. There are "many" on the road to destruction as well. (Matthew 7:13-14) Only "few" find the road to life...why? Because it is 'cramped and narrow', meaning that its got rules that some might find 'restrictive'. It is narrow because you can't bend the rules to suit yourself.
    Those on the wrong path will find out only at the judgment.

    Doesn't the same criteria apply to you atheists?

    Who created the universe? Who wrote your science textbooks? Someone who can't be wrong?

    Is it impossible for a Creator whose power is so immense to exist because science can't measure him?

    Is it really impossible for the human race to descend from two humans when you guys believe that all living things descended from a single celled organism that just happened by chance to pop into existence one day and had the ability to eventually become a dinosaur? Where is the proof that this ever happened? It is taken on faith.

    Could or would a God of justice perform a mass judgment on humanity as he claims he will do in the near future? Has he done it before? If the answer is "yes" then he can do it again. He is the arbiter over life and death.

    We decide what to believe about those things. No one is standing there with a big stick forcing us to make our decisions...we do that all by ourselves. We are granted that freedom because it forms the basis upon which our judgment rests. I don't believe denying that or not will not alter the outcome.

    Ah yes...."Christians". There are wheat and weeds...remember? We choose who to believe for our own reasons. It is those reasons which tell God who we really are. Compromise is very handy when one needs to save face.

    Same as above.These are the opinions of men. Same as science. Who do we believe?

    You have missed the point. Calling yourself a "Christian" is easy....living as one is not, especially in a world where ridicule is used to dissuade people from their faith....it is a favorite tactic to use a person's self worth against them.....but even then, their choices are very telling. Whose acceptance is more important to them?
    I believe that every decision we make is a declaration of who we are.

    Sometimes it isn't about proving or disproving anything...it is about why we hold the views we do in spite of the proof or lack of it. "Faith" is what makes the difference and what it is that forms the foundation of that faith. Atheists put faith in science, much of which is not provable, and we put faith in God whom we cannot produce as evidence either.....so the choice boils down to what suits our own worldview.

    I see a lot of atheists who are refugees from Christendom. I too an a refugee but I could never deny the existence of my Creator....nature itself will not allow it. I abandoned the religious system who can't agree on anything in favor of one that actually sticks to the Bible to furnish the answers to everything, despite what others may believe. That was my choice.

    You don't see that it works both ways? Are you not as indoctrinated as you think we are? How many years have you been feeding your own indoctrination?

    I guess your reasons for being here are not to convince me of anything, just as I will never convince you of anything....its those 'undecided' whom I hope will consider that their indoctrination in the education system might fight with that spiritual need inside them for meaning and purpose and a reason as why we are in this mess we call life. I am a person who needs reasons and I do not take anything at face value, but prefer to look beneath the surface to ascertain what is reasonable and rational and that resonates with me as a spiritual entity.

    It is a hope based on what the Bible promises. If you have no faith in God or the Bible then the promises are empty....but for us they are filled with the hope of something better to come. I would not swap that for the finality and hopelessness of atheism if you gave me 10 million dollars. What have atheists got to look forward to? Just more of this rot....perpetuated by human greed and ineptitude.
    Who do they have to trust for their future? The ones who created the present......:facepalm: no thanks.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Why would God have a mass judgment against the world? Jesus already paid the price for salvation and the apostate Jews have been punished and had their temple destroyed.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Probably because it is a mass of offense to him, religiously, nationally and socially divided against itself as we would expect in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)

    World rulership was handed over to the devil because he said humans would be better off making their own decisions independently of God.....so God let them experience first hand the devastating results of their own stupidity. Satan gave it away in his words to Jesus when tempting him at the start of his ministry.

    Luke 4:5-8....
    "So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

    Jesus did not refute this. Doesn't that explain why we have so much trouble with the way the world is ruled? Humans have no idea who is pulling the strings. Every country is experiencing problems with the ineptitude of their government.

    Jesus paid the price for those who accept the terms of the transaction. Did you not know that there were terms? Life has never been unconditional....not from day one. The Jews were punished with abandonment because they had their Messiah murdered. Jesus said so. (Matthew 23:37-39) This was consistent with their history....whenever God sent his prophets to correct them, they were silenced.....Jesus was the last prophet....and they silenced him too. He led a remnant out of that nation to salvation because they were willingly obedient. It is all God has ever asked of us and the one thing we find the most difficult to give him. Even in Eden.....

    In order to keep living, Adam and his wife had to obey the command of their God. Failure to obey would lead to forfeiting their life. That rule has never been rescinded.

    The Jews were asked to choose between life and death (not heaven and hell)

    "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (AT Deuteronomy 30:19-20)

    The proviso was that they had to love their God and obey him...Israel has never done that in any consistent manner. Their final decree of 'divorce' from God was the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 CE and the destruction of their Temple. It has never been rebuilt.....which confirms that their worship no longer matters to him. They are just like one of the nations, blood is on their hands. (Isaiah 1:15) They depend on foreign powers to render assistance to them, something their forefathers were punished for.

    Christians also have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Those who disobey will not attain salvation.
    In what ways does Christendom disobey the Christ....? Would you like a list? Its a long one.
     
  11. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
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    Not "completely" because there is real wisdom therein.
     
  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Nah mate, Dan 'The Giant' was sterile, his mother 'Bilhah' was raped by Reuben the first born of Israel, from which rape she conceived and bore a daughter, who she named Hushim.

    Bilhah died a few years later and Dan Adopted his little sister 'Hushim' as his own

    “The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house." Where ever a man has no sons, and his descendants are counted from his daughter, she is given the appellation "BEN." Hushim ben Dan is the sister and adopted daughter of Dan, who married into the tribe of Benjamin and through whose son Abitub, the tribe of Dan is counted.

    Hushim was married to a man from the tribe of Benjamin, whose name was Shaharaim to who she bore two sons, Abitub and Elpaal, who are also called Shuppim and Huppim. Shaharaim divorced Husim, before Jacob took his family into Egypt, and Moved into the Land of Moab, where he sired sven sons to a woman named Hodesh, It was from the descendants of Hodesh, that King David's mother came..

    All the descendants of Hushim, are descendants of Shaharaim, and are therefore Benjaminites.

    Knowing that Dan was sterile, Jacob divided Joseph into two tribes, adopting Joseph's two sons as his own. Thereby maintaining the 12 tribes that are recorded as the 144,000 in Revelation.

    King Saul, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite was a descendant of Hushim's second son Elpaal.

    'Abi' means 'Father' and the tribe of Dan are counted from the descendants of ABItub, the first born of Hushim

    To be continued.....One of the great grandsons is having trouble with his bike. Be back later, if time permits.
     
    #152 The Anointed, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Yes, sad. There was a post I made on this.

    Why? Why does Judaism (which has been around much longer), only have 50- 70 branches, Islam only have 50-60 different sects, yet Christendom over 30,000? So many more?!

    The answer lies in this question: what better way for an enemy, to hide Truth? The proverbial “needle in a haystack”....simply create a huge haystack!

    With men being who they are, there will always be division. Hence, why there are quite a few branches of Islam & Judaism (still less than 100 each); and why there are 195 countries.

    But over 30,000 sects of Christendom? It’s like Somebody has been monkeying with it!

    Fortunately, the Bible provides the answer....God’s (and mankind’s) Enemy -1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, whom you and others don’t even think exists! Another master stroke by the Master Manipulator!
     
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  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Neither I nor my organization have joined in any wars, nor killed any of my brothers. Those organizations who have...well, their understanding is suspect, right from the start! Since one needs God’s blessing and spirit to understand His Word (Luke 10:21)....those who are disobedient (John 15:12-17) certainly wouldn’t have it!

    It always amazes me how so many, even in Christendom, can’t — or won’t — grasp this fact!
    Of course, this was foretold, too. 2 Corinthians 4:4; Titus 1:16
     
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  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Hockeycowboy said...….. Fortunately, the Bible provides the answer

    The Anointed...…. So say all the members of the 30,000 Christian sects.
     
  16. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    But yet almost all 30,000 are Sola Scriptura... How does that work?

    How is that "hiding a needle in a haystack" when the whole stack is needles..? All the needles are the same. IOW, the bible is the bible.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is where you are mistaken...the haystack is what the strawmen are made of....the strawmen are the 30 odd thousand supposedly "Christian" sects created by the devil......the needle is God's truth. There can be only one truth and it isn't about what you call yourself that makes you a Christian....its about how obedient you are to Christ's teachings....all of them, not just the convenient ones.

    Do you think that the Catholic church is obedient to the Christ? If so in what ways?
     
  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    "By their fruits, you will recognize them" Matthew 7, vss. 16,21-23
     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The 144,000 are the true Israel and not the false Israel.

    As Paul written in the book of Romans 9:6
    6--"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

    Therefore they are not all of Israel which are of Israel.
    This being that there are two groups of people in Israel, one being the true Israel and the other being the false Israel.

    So you have what Christ Jesus referred to as the good fig tree and the bad fig tree. That shall grow together until Christ Jesus returns.

    As for the 144,000, they will come about during the tribulation, When God's chosen elect people start prophesying which then the 144,000 will come out of Babylon, This being out of confusion.

    Then the 144,000 will stand with God's elect people to fight against the AntiChrist during the tribulation, Which is about to come upon all the world to try them that live upon the earth, For this is the hour of temptation spoken by Christ Jesus in
    Revelation 3:10
     
  20. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The difference has to do with faith versus law. Faith is the trust in things not yet seen. Law is seen and is more by the book. It does not require as much faith. Law requires more in the way of conformity to a super ego. The 30,000 sects of Christianity is implicit of a wide range of faith, within each of the 30,000 founders. They feel a need to depart from the status quo. The olden religions do not allow faith outside their sects.

    The 144,000 chosen ones, have a seal on their foreheads. The forehead is where the mind's eye; imagination, and the frontal lobe of the brain, are. This part of the brain is where faith materializes in terms of neurons. Not defiled by women is symbolic of using the frontal lobe, instead of learning by root; language and temporal lobe.

    The 12 tribes of Israel are scattered to all four corners of the world. Judah, in part, has returned to the land of Israel. The other 11 tribes are still out there. The Servant of Isaiah also known as the sensible slave in the New Testament, and the White Horseman of Revelations, will gather the children of the promise. He has the spirit of John of the New testament; the apostle that Jesus loved. Jesus adopts John as his brother by associating him to his mother; behold your son. John would see Jesus coming again through his visions associated with Revelations. The Spirit of John will come again, to prophesy.

    The White Horseman will gather the children of the promise. The children; 12 tribes, plus many others will converge on the land of Israel. Once everyone is assembled, the Servant teams up with another unknown person; woman, and changes his persona to become the Red Horseman. This transition is the bear of Daniel, who is built up on one side; Servant's. He is like refiners fire and fuller soap and will purify the children of the promise. They are clay when they first gather and the Servant will mold them.

    The Red Horseman is also called the peg. All the responsibility and all the honor will hang upon him. After the testimony of the two anointed one is done, the two anointed ones will be sacrificed and killed; the guilt sacrifice. The two anointed ones are resurrected after the third day. Great fear comes over everyone, since they all know the die has been cast, for the second half of the prophesies.

    Jesus did away with the law, in favor of faith. The problem is, to follow faith, one has often has to break the law, which can create guilt. This guilt can make it hard to follow the path of faith in the future. For example, if your faith said to eat an unclean thing, you may follow out of faith.Yet, as time goes by, you may feel guilt, because your were taught not to do this, and have now you have become unclean with not obvious reason for having done it. The guilt sacrifice helps to open up the charisma of faith to beyond the 144,000. The resurrection validates the sacrifice which now makes faith easier.

    This opening up of faith, to beyond the chosen ones, eventually leads to the next part of the drama, associate with the antiChrist. He is a creative spirit, driven by Satan, who makes changes in law and times. With guilt gone, in light of the void that had been created by the loss of the servant; peg; anything now goes including faith in the ambiguity of the dark side. This includes sacrificing the144000 chosen ones. They are the first harvest. This is the perseverance of the Saints.

    In my experience, this drama is in internal drama, connected to an update in the operating system of the brain. The first part of the drama sort of checks brain resources, and makes sure the download is OK. The second part, after the guilt sacrifice, is like the initial un-install process, before the installation begins. The 144000 first fruits is symbolic or analogous to your personal settings being saved, before a new installation. There is a huge memory dump; battle, but the essence of who you are remains. The ego center starts small but builds back up, but via the new firmware, that is in phase with new inner self set point. The back up copy of the old firmware will remain; different inner self point; dragon is sealed. It becomes up to one to maintain the higher inner self set point so the phase does not return to the old operating system; dragon released.
     
    #160 wellwisher, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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