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Featured Identifying the 144,000

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Deeje, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    LOL, the Catholics have written their own personal scriptures, called tradition.

    Who are these mainline Protestant churches you talk about ?

    The largest group of Protestants in America are Evangelicals, and I assure you, Revelation is studied and is part of our belief structure.
     
  2. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Southern Baptists, United Church of Christ and Anglicans are who I presume Sooda has in mind.

    Do you spend all your time talking about it, speculating on who the Antichrist is, who is the Whore of Babylon, who the beasts are, what the mark of the beast is, etc.? I know there are some fringe splinter-cell Evangelical and Baptist churches who devote all their time to conspiracy theories. That's not most Evangelicals or most Baptists, though.
     
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Bible
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  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    these are multitude, a gross, a large amount, a number that cannot be counted unless you can count the grains of sand on a beach, or the stars of heaven.


    Rev 7:3-Rev 7:9 NIV “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, Rev 7:7-Rev 7:9 NIV from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


    these are multitude, a gross, a large amount that can't be numbered.


    and here is what I AM is doing.............stand and deliver.



    Ezek 9:3-Ezek 9:4 NIV Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.
     
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  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    OK
     
  6. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Once again, the Evangelicals study and teach about the book of Revelation. Baptist Evangelicals do as well. do as well.

    You are being totally disingenuous. I don´t know anyone who spends all their time talking about this matter.

    This thread grew out of a friendly discussion about who the 144,000 identified in the Book of Revelation are.

    It has now morphed into accusations and all manner of BS from people who don´t care about the verses and demand I not care as well.

    One thing assured about a theological discussion in this forum, it will be brought to its lowest common denominator by criticism, derision, and asinine comments by those who care little about theology in the first place.

    Itś called religious forums, but the non religious bring their criticism and rancor to every religious discussion.

    A conspiracy ?
     
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  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I'm glad you recognize that! I'm sure @Deeje is, too.

    We consider that a compliment. It is the only written source that teaches humans about Jehovah God and Jesus.
     
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  8. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Jesus was partly quoting Pslams 25 and Psalms 37 and amplifying what was there since they both talk about 'inheriting the earth'... in part... but yes it was a quote of Jesus as well
     
    #88 whirlingmerc, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  9. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, sola scriptura is the only way to find God.
     
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  10. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Apparently you think I'm insinuating that all Baptists and all Evangelicals are bad and crazy because they delve into the Book of Revelation from time to time. I'm not. As I already said, there are a few things we know for sure about the Book of Revelation's meaning, particularly in the first and last few chapters. That's all well and fine to talk about.

    You seem to be missing the fact that I'm talking about fringe lunatics who spend two hours on Sunday morning claiming to know who exactly is the Antichrist, what the Mark of the Beast is, what 666 stands for, who the Whore of Babylon is and what Babylon stands for, etc. I am talking about the same fringe whackaloons who claim to know exactly on what date the Rapture will happen or when the Great Tribulation will begin. I am talking about the same people who make announcements about the end of the world only to get laughed at by local news when their predictions invariably prove false. I am talking about the people who make crappy History Channel conspiracy theory documentaries making claims like "Obama is the Antichrist who brought 7 years of peace! Ronald Reagan is the 666 warned about in the Bible!"

    I am not, however, talking about your rank-and-file Evangelicals or Baptists who just spend time reading the Bible on Sunday morning. If you haven't heard of the weirdos I have described above, then congratulations! You and your friends and family are perfectly well-adjusted individuals who don't go spending all their time and building their ministries around chasing conspiracy theories like many people I've seen on TV and on YouTube.

    Honestly, I have no idea why you're getting offended. Literally all I have said is that there are some weird fringe types who claim to know exactly what all the symbolisms mean in the Book of Revelation and that most of that stuff is not worth studying in depth. Nowhere did I say that you or your church were fringe. I said there were some fringe types among the Evangelicals and Baptists, which is true. Your movements' lack of organizational cohesion means that that is an inevitability. Most churches and almost all broader conferences are normal, and a few independent churches are off the rails. I don't see how a few simple statements of fact are offensive.
     
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  11. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    But even Jesus and Paul acknowledged and taught handed down, oral Traditions that were unwritten in the Hebrew scriptures.

    ...So I don't understand why this is such a positive trait, when Jesus and Paul did not adhere to it.
     
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  12. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    Says who though? The bible does not state this.

    Also, Jesus acknowledged the truth in Traditions that existed outside of scripture in that time.
     
  13. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    This is where you fall. If Sola Scriptura is the true way of understanding God's message, then why are there so many Protestant denominations?

    ...The number of Protestant denominations has been estimated to be 33,000..!

    But there is only one Apostolic Church, and the Catholics and the Orthodox and twenty-three Eastern Churches all belong to it.
     
    #93 Cooky, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2019
  14. Cooky

    Cooky The Killer

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    ...You Protestants Can't even agree if Jesus is God or not, or if the Trinity is real.

    All you seem to agree on is your Sola Scriptura -- the very thing that divides you, LOL.

    <EDIT> Oh, and I almost forgot, you generally also seem to agree on your hatred for the Orthodox, Catholics and the 23 Eastern Churches... Congratulations. :rolleyes:
     
    #94 Cooky, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2019
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sorry for the late reply.

    I hear you.....one wonders whom it is that they are trying to convince.....? Misery loves company and so does 'unbelief' apparently. It always helps to have reinforcements....people who think like they do.....look how useful that was to the people in Noah's day. :oops: No one was listening to that crazy old man building a huge box out in the middle of a cleared field....it must mean that they could ignore him with impunity.....

    Since belonging to fleshly "Israel" was discussed by John the Baptist and the apostle Paul as having little consequence if a person was not obedient to God, then being "Jewish" by birth was NOT of prime importance.

    Matthew 3:7-10....
    "When [John the Baptist] caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

    Here John clearly states that being sons of Abraham was not going to count for anything if they were not repentant. We know that they never were.....the axe was poised at the beginning of Jesus ministry and it fell when Jesus declared that 'their house was abandoned'...they silenced the last prophet sent to them, just as they had done many times before. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    The apostle Paul also stated that being Jewish and being circumcised meant nothing at all if Jews did not keep the law. Those recognized as "Jews on the inside" were the ones acceptable to God. These included the Gentiles who repented of their former ways, and were baptized.

    Romans 2:28-29...
    For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”

    Its not about being "Jewish" by birth...its about acting like a Jew should in obedience to the Messiah sent by God to lead, not the incorrigible religious leaders to salvation, but the "lost sheep" who were the casualties of those negligent shepherds and that corrupt religious system.

    Paul identified the "Israel of God" as Christian disciples of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:16)......some were Jewish...many were not. The 144,000 are not just fleshly Jews....they are spiritual Jews. Remember that only a "remnant" out of that nation were to be saved. (Romans 9:27)

    Yes...only those who accept Christ will be saved. The nation as a whole still stubbornly rejects Christ as Messiah. As Jesus said...
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

    For almost 2,000 years this nation has denied the one who came in Jehovah's name. There will be no last minute conversion. We are having all our opportunities right now as these last days draw to a close.

    Whoa :eek:...."Messianic Jews" now? Are they calling on folk with the Christian message? How are they spreading their teachings across the earth when no one has seen or heard from them? I have never met one face to face in my entire life.

    The "great tribulation" is a time of great turmoil for all mankind living. The 144,000, according to Revelation are standing with Jesus in heaven when the tribulation breaks out....so it is the "great crowd" who suffer through that time and come out victorious. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14; Matthew 24:13)

    It is not just the 144,000 who are called out of Babylon the great. It is all servants of the true God. "The faithful and discreet slave" appointed by Jesus to feed his household their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45) exited "Babylon the great" ages ago and have re-established true worship on earth in these last days, leading others out of that disgusting place. (Revelation 18:4)

    Really? Is that what you see? God kept his covenant with Israel, but they did not keep their covenant with him.
    They broke the covenant...he did not. God produced their Messiah as promised, but true to their pride and rebellious nature, they put him to death. God has no further obligation whatsoever to the Jews.

    He chose a new nation to replace them....."the Israel of God"....these were out of all nations. (Acts of the Apostles 15:14; Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35)

    Don't hold your breath....:( Literal Israel were handed back to the world because they have blood on their hands and like their forefathers, they have made alliances with other nations, rather than relying on their God to defend them. (Isaiah 1:15) God does not support them, nor does he protect them. I do not believe that he has recognized them as his people since the first century. Once their Temple was destroyed, it was never rebuilt. Their sacrifices were the only way to have their sins forgiven....now there is nowhere to offer them.

    I have to admit, I am a little disappointed that your reply is rather short on scripture Shmogie.....I thought it was going to be a verse by verse discussion....? :shrug:
     
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  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Mainline Protestant churches in America include the United Methodist Church, most Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, the United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, and northern Baptists, along with some smaller groups.
    Mainline Protestant churches - Religion-wiki
    religion.wikia.com/wiki/Mainline_Protestant_churches
     
  17. Workman

    Workman UNIQUE

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    ONE FOR..(t)..FOR THOU SEND.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The rapture occurs after the great Sabbath of one thousand years, which as Paul states is the future reality of which the weekly seventh day Sabbath was but a shadow, The Lords day, in which he shall judge the whole world with Justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death. see Acts 17: 31.

    The book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he [ADAM] lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ’On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

    At the close of the Great seventh day Sabbath of one thousand years, heavenly fire descends and incinerates all physical life forms on this planet, it is then at the sound of the last trumpet that the rapture occurs.

    As Paul says, we shall not all fall asleep in death, but at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET, we shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter into glorious bodies of incorruptible brilliant and blinding light.

    When EVE, who has become the great androgynous body of mankind, ask the dying Adam when she would be reunited with him she was told "IN SIX DAYS TIME."

    Zephaniah 1: 2-3; The Lord said, "I am going to destroy everything on earth, all human beings and animals, birds and fish. I will bring about the downfall of the wicked. I will destroy all mankind, and no survivors will be left. I the Lord have spoken.

    Verse 18; On the Day when the Lord shows his fury, not even all their silver or gold will save them. The whole eartn will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end----a sudden end----to everyone who lives on earth.

    BTW, has anyone tried to explain why none from the tribe of Dan are mentioned among the 144,000?
     
    #99 The Anointed, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Jubilee ? Really?

    Jubilees makes an incestuous reference regarding the son of Adam and Eve, Cain, and his wife. In chapter iv (1–12) (Cain and Abel), it mentions that Cain took his sister Awan to be his wife and Enoch was their child.

    It also mentions that Seth (the third son of Adam and Eve) married his sister Azura.[21]

    According to this book, Hebrew is the language of Heaven, and was originally spoken by all creatures in the Garden, animals and man; however, the animals lost their power of speech when Adam and Eve were expelled.

    Following the Deluge, the earth was apportioned into three divisions for the three sons of Noah, and his sixteen grandsons.

    After the destruction of the Tower of Babel, their families were scattered to their respective allotments, and Hebrew was forgotten, until Abraham was taught it by the angels.

    Book of Jubilees - Wikipedia
     
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