Identifying the 144,000

[sooda]

If the writers of The Bible had any idea that there would someday be over 7.5 billion people in the world, do you think they would have thrown out a number like 144,000?

Even loosely/liberally estimating the population during the time The Bible was written to around 200 million, that puts 144,000 at 0.072%, and the writers of The Bible were almost assuredly ignorant of the actual scope of human population of Earth - and likely only took their most immediately surroundings on their own continent into account when coming up with that number.

When you balloon the number to the current 7.5 billion, that percentage drops to under 0.002%. Between 0.072% and 0.002% is a 3600% difference. And the percentage of people who are in this "chosen" group as a function of the entire population of Earth gets smaller and smaller as time goes on and the population increases.

Its a mistake to take any of that stuff literally.. Its highly symbolic and the ancients understood the symbolism perfectly.

 

[ecco]

Because the Kingdom of God is a real functioning government that will rule over redeemed mankind, we need to appreciate that any government is a minority ruling over a majority.

This government of God is not elected by men, but by God himself, making them the right people for the job. Ones who have a proven record of faithful obedience to God.

Once breathing stops, the soul (person) dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) This is true of both humans and animals who are both called "souls" in the Bible. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (sheol) where you are going."

According to your transcription of Solomon, everyone dies and the dead are dead.

Yet, somehow, God chooses those who will govern. That must mean that the governing body will be chosen from among the living - the 144,000 virgins?

If that is the case, all good parents are left out. If that is the case, anyone already dead is left out.

I am probably misunderstanding something.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Your opinions are irrelevant to me, your motive is relevant.

It is the same with many atheists, you aren´t being singled out.

The only motive I can see for commenting nonsense ( within the context of the discussion and those taking part) is a tiny form of harassment ( if one allows oneself to feel harassed).

I comment to ensure that you know that your apparent motive is known, nothing more.

If this isn´t your purpose, then why comment when you know your view will be utterly rejected and will not be taken seriously ?

Because there is the sincere hope that it will be taken seriously. That maybe, just maybe, someone who is currently thinking they have "the facts" without one bit of compelling evidence will take a look at a comment I make about the apparent absurdity of the claims and think "You know... maybe this stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be."

In the end, you have to understand - I don't care whether people call themselves "atheist" or believe or don't believe in God, etc. - what I care about is that people have good, sound reasons to believe whatever it is that they believe, and that they can easily demonstrate the evidence that gets them there. And things like this "144,000" AREN'T THAT.

 

[sooda]

Because there is the sincere hope that it will be taken seriously. That maybe, just maybe, someone who is currently thinking they have "the facts" without one bit of compelling evidence will take a look at a comment I make about the apparent absurdity of the claims and think "You know... maybe this stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be."

In the end, you have to understand - I don't care whether people call themselves "atheist" or believe or don't believe in God, etc. - what I care about is that people have good, sound reasons to believe whatever it is that they believe, and that they can easily demonstrate the evidence that gets them there. And things like this "144,000" AREN'T THAT.

God is not going to run the government. His is a spiritual kingdom.. How is it these people overrule what Jesus said repeatedly????

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Its a mistake to take any of that stuff literally.. Its highly symbolic and the ancients understood the symbolism perfectly.

Well then there are a lot of people making a lot of mistakes... and the big problem I have with it all is that they sincerely believe that they aren't making any sort of mistake at all, and yet could not give one good reason they feel that way to save their lives.

 

[sooda]

Well then there are a lot of people making a lot of mistakes... and the big problem I have with it all is that they sincerely believe that they aren't making any sort of mistake at all, and yet could not give one good reason they feel that way to save their lives.

Do they sincerely believe? I doubt that.

They have been sold a bill of goods by Hagee or Hal Lindsey or Jack Van Impe and that's what they want to believe.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

This is only if you interpret the number literally. Symbolically, the number "12" is often associated with perfection, and the number "thousand" with "uncountable, a great multitude". So 12x1000=a perfect/perfected multitude. Honestly, taking most any of the imagery in Revelation at face value is foolhardy; it certainly wasn't intended that way by the author or read that way by the original recipients of the letter. Sadly, we don't actually know the exact interpretation of the symbology of the Book of Revelation, which is why the Orthodox don't bother reading it on Sunday or at any other time, the Catholics barely talk about it, and fringe whackaloons base their entire ministries on talking about conspiracy theories that they read into the Book.

Which necessarily makes the text esoteric, and that much more inaccessible to anyone who reads the words at face value, and who doesn't put the time and effort in to research the history and context, etc. and "get it right." If you've got something to say to me... say it. Don't shut it in a steel cage, place it at the bottom of the ocean marked by a single, unlit buoy, hand me a flashlight and a snorkeling mask and say "Oh, it's down there." Unless, of course, you never want me find out what you wanted to say in the first place.

In the case of "Revelations", my opinion on what makes most sense is that the author knew that, if stated plainly, people would find that what they'd written actually doesn't really say anything at all.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Do they sincerely believe? I doubt that.

They have been sold a bill of goods by Hagee or Hal Lindsey or Jack Van Impe and that's what they want to believe.

They may not sincerely believe in the specifics, but I do strongly feel that they believe that they "aren't wrong." That part's easy. We all do it.

 

[sooda]

They may not sincerely believe in the specifics, but I do strongly feel that they believe that they "aren't wrong." That part's easy. We all do it.

And adults also believe Jonah sat in the belly of a fish for 3 days?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Your opinions are irrelevant to me, your motive is relevant.

In the case of theists, both of these things are relevant to me. For the vast majority, their religious opinions necessarily affect their actions and behavior toward the rest of the world, and their motive is completely questionable in all cases.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

And adults also believe Jonah sat in the belly of a fish for 3 days?

This is just perfect, honestly.

Do you know who gets told those stories as if they are true? Bible school children. I've seen it, first hand. Have you ever seen those narrated videos where they go on and on about how "amazing" God is while telling outlandish stories like "Jonah and the Whale?" They spoon-feed nonsense, truly attempting to get these kids to buy it.

And as you grow up... what do you do? You realize it is just allegory. Just a story. Except guess what? Relatively few take this revelation to its obvious conclusion. It's ALL made up. It's all just a story. None of those people who wrote it know the truth any better than anyone else.

Adults fairly easily take the step to realize "Jonah and the Whale" simply isn't realistic... and yet God is still their buddy on high, and Jesus is his dad, and the "Holy Spirit" is the substance of their all-knowing farts.

 

[sooda]

This is just perfect, honestly.

Do you know who gets told those stories as if they are true? Bible school children. I've seen it, first hand. Have you ever seen those narrated videos where they go on and on about how "amazing" God is while telling outlandish stories like "Jonah and the Whale?" They spoon-feed nonsense, truly attempting to get these kids to buy it.

And as you grow up... what do you do? You realize it is just allegory. Just a story. Except guess what? Relatively few take this revelation to its obvious conclusion. It's ALL made up. It's all just a story. None of those people who wrote it know the truth any better than anyone else.

Adults fairly easily take the step to realize "Jonah and the Whale" simply isn't realistic... and yet God is still their buddy on high, and Jesus is his dad, and the "Holy Spirit" is the substance of their all-knowing farts.

Absolutely.. and I love those stories.. I never missed Sunday school or vacation Bible school, but by the time I was 9 or 10 I knew they weren't real. I also knew Santa Claus was mom and dad, but I played along because it was such fun for all of us.

 

[Shiranui117]

Which necessarily makes the text esoteric, and that much more inaccessible to anyone who reads the words at face value, and who doesn't put the time and effort in to research the history and context, etc. and "get it right." If you've got something to say to me... say it. Don't shut it in a steel cage, place it at the bottom of the ocean marked by a single, unlit buoy, hand me a flashlight and a snorkeling mask and say "Oh, it's down there." Unless, of course, you never want me find out what you wanted to say in the first place.

In the case of "Revelations", my opinion on what makes most sense is that the author knew that, if stated plainly, people would find that what they'd written actually doesn't really say anything at all.

I said what I needed to say. Nobody understands this book, not even people who lived a mere 100 years after it was written. The original community to whom this letter was addressed never laid down their interpretation of it as far as we know, or told anyone what it means. It almost didn't even make it into the Bible at all because of this, save for the first few chapters and the last two chapters which are clear enough to understand, and a few imagery things that we still use in our worship. As far as who the Antichrist and the Whore of Babylon and the Mark of the Beast and the dragon with ten heads and seven crowns... Nobody knows what any of that means. I'm not "shutting it in a steel cage and putting it at the bottom of the ocean marked by a single, unlit buoy". I'm stating the facts of what we know about the book, which isn't much.

 

[shmogie]

In the case of theists, both of these things are relevant to me. For the vast majority, their religious opinions necessarily affect their actions and behavior toward the rest of the world, and their motive is completely questionable in all cases.

Nope, not at all. Our motive is simple. We are good citizens, pay our taxes and most who died in all the wars of the Republic were Christians.

We respect everyone ´s rights, all of them under the Constitution.

We desire to be left alone by the world to exercise our right to practice our religion as we see fit. In all things we are bound by the laws of the land, we may despise some of them, but we respect them.

Our only faith interaction with non believers is to share the Gospel, for them to reject or accept as they choose.

So our motives are questionable, please tell me about that, on the face of it your statemnet is pure baloney

 

[shmogie]

I said what I needed to say. Nobody understands this book, not even people who lived a mere 100 years after it was written. The original community to whom this letter was addressed never laid down their interpretation of it as far as we know, or told anyone what it means. It almost didn't even make it into the Bible at all because of this, save for the first few chapters and the last two chapters which are clear enough to understand, and a few imagery things that we still use in our worship. As far as who the Antichrist and the Whore of Babylon and the Mark of the Beast and the dragon with ten heads and seven crowns... Nobody knows what any of that means. I'm not "shutting it in a steel cage and putting it at the bottom of the ocean marked by a single, unlit buoy". I'm stating the facts of what we know about the book, which isn't much.

The old adage about opinions applies here, you have one.

 

[sooda]

I said what I needed to say. Nobody understands this book, not even people who lived a mere 100 years after it was written. The original community to whom this letter was addressed never laid down their interpretation of it as far as we know, or told anyone what it means. It almost didn't even make it into the Bible at all because of this, save for the first few chapters and the last two chapters which are clear enough to understand, and a few imagery things that we still use in our worship. As far as who the Antichrist and the Whore of Babylon and the Mark of the Beast and the dragon with ten heads and seven crowns... Nobody knows what any of that means. I'm not "shutting it in a steel cage and putting it at the bottom of the ocean marked by a single, unlit buoy". I'm stating the facts of what we know about the book, which isn't much.

Please do notice who focuses on Revelation.. Its not the Catholics or mainline Protestant Churches.

 

[ecco]

Do you know who gets told those stories as if they are true? Bible school children.

and I love those stories.. I never missed Sunday school or vacation Bible school

I too was exposed to these stories in Sunday school around age nine. My primary recollection is of pictures of the ark with all the animals and the giraffes heads sticking out.

After two weeks I told my parents I wasn't going any more. I saw that all the stories were no more real than any of my comic book stories. That's when I realized that there was no god.

 

[sooda]

I too was exposed to these stories in Sunday school around age nine. My primary recollection is of pictures of the ark with all the animals and the giraffes heads sticking out.

After two weeks I told my parents I wasn't going any more. I saw that all the stories were no more real than any of my comic book stories. That's when I realized that there was no god.

Children know.. They aren't stupid..There is more to faith than fantastic tales.

 

[ecco]

Children know.. They aren't stupid..There is more to faith than fantastic tales.

The difference between me and most kids who go to Sunday school is that I had practically no previous indoctrination into gods or religions.

Children who have said their prayers every night before going to sleep are much more likely to accept and believe stories about the ark.

Many of them become bible-believing adults. Here we can see some of them...

ETA: In these very forums, we can read what they have to say.

 

[sooda]

The difference between me and most kids who go to Sunday school is that I had practically no previous indoctrination into gods or religions.

Children who have said their prayers every night before going to sleep are much more likely to accept and believe stories about the ark.

Many of them become bible-believing adults. Here we can see some of them...

ETA: In these very forums, we can read what they have to say.

I had PLENTY of early indoctrination and said my prayers every night from age 3.