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Identifying the 144,000

sooda

Veteran Member
Gehenna

(originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech ( 2 Chronicles 28:3 ; 33:6 ; Jeremiah 7:31 ; 19:2-6 ).

This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction.

In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 .

In these passages, and also in James 3:6 , the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. (See HELL; HINNOM .)
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
We need to do some math here.....

First of all we have to know the condition of the dead. The Hebrew Scriptures never present the "soul" as something that resides in the body. In ancient Jewish belief, the body was a soul as long as it was breathing. Therefore the soul is mortal, not immortal. Once breathing stops, the soul (person) dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) This is true of both humans and animals who are both called "souls" in the Bible. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (sheol) where you are going."

So a human can only think and feel and plan whilst ever there is breath in them. Once breathing stops, the soul (the whole of what a person is) passes away.

That being the case, the Bible speaks of those who are 'spiritually dead' and I believe it is those who, whilst still alive physically, shake their fist at those who disagree with what they want to believe. The Pharisees did this with Jesus. They hated him and what he said (especially about them) enough to want to kill him.

When Jesus spoke about "gehenna" (translated as "hell" in many Bibles) he was not speaking of a literal fiery hell, but about a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where the bodies of those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial were cast for disposal, not torture. The torture was experienced whilst they were still alive. Jesus teachings condemned them to eternal death.

Matthew 10:28...
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."

Do you see that God "destroys" souls in gehenna? That means a complete obliteration of life. God will never restore them to life again because they failed to respond to the truths that Jesus taught....they saw the demonstration of God's holy spirit but attributed it to the works of the devil, rather than be corrected by God's own son. They resorted to what the wayward Jews had always done.....they silenced the messenger. :(

In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

From the book of Ecclesiastes: “Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles. Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes’ without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

Sirach 46: 13-20; 13 Samuel was dearly loved by his Lord. As a prophet from the Lord, he established a kingdom and anointed rulers over his people. 14 He judged the congregation by the Lord's law, and the Lord watched over Jacob. 15 He proved to be a reliable prophet because of his faithfulness, and through his words he became known as a trustworthy seer.16 He called upon the Lord, the mighty one, with an offering of a nursing lamb when his enemies pressed on him from every side. 17 The Lord thundered from heaven, and he made his voice loudly heard. 18 He destroyed the leaders of the people of Tyre and all the rulers of the Philistines. 19 And at the time that he rested on his bed he called Jahveh and his anointed to witness: From whom have I ever taken a bribe? "No property, not even a pair of sandals, have I taken from anyone! And not one person accused him. 20 Samuel prophesied after he had fallen asleep, and he showed the king what his end would be. He made his voice heard from the ground in prophecy to wipe out the people's lawless behavior.

Although the Jews, believed that Samuel prophesied from the grave, the false prophet cult of the JW's, would have you believe that it was a demon that spoke to Saul.

The death of the body is not the death of the mind that developed within that body and has been imprinted upon the universal soul.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I believe the identity of the 144,000 in Revelation is explicitly given. They are exactly who the scriptures say they are...And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev. 7:4), twelve thousand from each of the tribes listed. In the scriptures Israel always means national Israel.

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were a]">[a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. (Rev. 7:5-8)

I understand that this is what a lot of people believe...but this is spiritual Israel, not literal Israel.

Please refer to the OP where this is explained.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Israel was a man who was originally called Jacob. He had ten sons and two grandsons. These twelve would become the patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel. Judah was the fourth son and his descendants compose the tribe called the Jews. In Revelations, 12,000 members, from each of the twelve tribes equals the 144,000, as Deeje shows above.

The seal on the forehead of the chosen 144,000, and them not being defile by women, is symbolic. Males are visually orientated. They use the brain more front to back, and back to front; frontal and visual cortex. The seal on the forehead is over the frontal cortex; imagination and visionary.

Females are more verbally oriented and use the brain more side-to-side; temporal lobes. The temporal lobes are more connected to language and cultural traditions. Not defiled by women is symbolic of faith; inner vision, versus learning by root via language based traditions.

The New Testament is the covenant of faith; frontal cortex, apart from the law; temporal lobe.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Israel was a man who was originally called Jacob. He had ten sons and two grandsons. These twelve would become the patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel. Judah was the fourth son and his descendants compose the tribe called the Jews. In Revelations, 12,000 members, from each of the twelve tribes equals the 144,000, as Deeje shows above.

The seal on the forehead of the chosen 144,000, and them not being defile by women, is symbolic. Males are visually orientated. They use the brain more front to back, and back to front; frontal and visual cortex. The seal on the forehead is over the frontal cortex; imagination and visionary.

Females are more verbally oriented and use the brain more side-to-side; temporal lobes. The temporal lobes are more connected to language and cultural traditions. Not defiled by women is symbolic of faith; inner vision, versus learning by root via language based traditions.

The New Testament is the covenant of faith; frontal cortex, apart from the law; temporal lobe.


Jacob had twelve sons and at least one daughter, by his two wives, Leah and Rachel, and by their handmaidens Bilhah and Zilpah.

Jacob's twelve sons, named in Genesis, were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
If the writers of The Bible had any idea that there would someday be over 7.5 billion people in the world, do you think they would have thrown out a number like 144,000? Even loosely/liberally estimating the population during the time The Bible was written to around 200 million, that puts 144,000 at 0.072%, and the writers of The Bible were almost assuredly ignorant of the actual scope of human population of Earth - and likely only took their most immediately surroundings on their own continent into account when coming up with that number.

When you balloon the number to the current 7.5 billion, that percentage drops to under 0.002%. Between 0.072% and 0.002% is a 3600% difference. And the percentage of people who are in this "chosen" group as a function of the entire population of Earth gets smaller and smaller as time goes on and the population increases.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Since the highest number in Hebrew at Jesus' time was 1000, anything above that had to be shown using a combination of words. It is likely, according to at least some theologians, that it may have originated this way if we use English words: twelve twelves thousands; or if I use numbers: 12 X 12 X 1000.

"Twelve" is a number that in Hebrew represented "completion". To repeat it again would be saying "very much completion". "One thousand" is a number in Hebrew then would stand for "great numbers", much we tend to use a "million" here, so it's like if I said "Look outside as there must be a thousand [million] birds out there!".

Therefore, what the "144,000" may mean is "completion upon completion in numbers too high to actually count", which to me makes more sense in the context of what we read in Revelation than taking the "144,000" literally.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
An apostle is symbolic of an assignee, an emissary or legate of another individual. The margin between the biblical usage of apostle and disciple is thin.

Nonetheless, there exists a little distinguishable difference. The bible did not tag all disciples as apostles. However, every apostle is a disciple.
There were only 12 Apostles, 13 if you count Judas. There will never be any more.

The difference between Apostle and disciple is huge.

The Apostles were selected by Christ, worked with him in his ministry and knew him. The only exception is Paul, who saw Christ, and was accepted by the other Apostles as an Apostle.

A Disciple is any Christian following The Way and sharing the Gospel.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
If the writers of The Bible had any idea that there would someday be over 7.5 billion people in the world, do you think they would have thrown out a number like 144,000? Even loosely/liberally estimating the population during the time The Bible was written to around 200 million, that puts 144,000 at 0.072%, and the writers of The Bible were almost assuredly ignorant of the actual scope of human population of Earth - and likely only took their most immediately surroundings on their own continent into account when coming up with that number.

When you balloon the number to the current 7.5 billion, that percentage drops to under 0.002%. Between 0.072% and 0.002% is a 3600% difference. And the percentage of people who are in this "chosen" group as a function of the entire population of Earth gets smaller and smaller as time goes on and the population increases.
So ? The number is the number. The population then or now has nothing to do with it.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
So ? The number is the number. The population then or now has nothing to do with it.
If we assume that a writer/writers chose the number, and taken in the context of a people who didn't realize how many people there potentially could be in the world, it does.

If assumed that God exists and gave them the number, then you're right, it wouldn't make sense to the mind assuming that. I would never make such assumptions, as I believe they are without merit and completely unwarranted. And so I look for more realistic reasons that things are written the way they are. i.e. not that "God" was once giving out information and then suspiciously stopped, but that people made this stuff up, and chose circumstances even for prophecy that "fit" the world and times they experienced. I certainly believe that that's all they had to go on, after all.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
This thread was started because of a conversation between @shmogie and myself on the identity of the 144,000, but others are free to join in the discussion.

Here is how JW's understand the 144,000 of Revelation.

Beginning with Revelation 14:1-5 we read...

"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish." (NWT)

Or from the NASB.....
"Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."

So who are these 144,000 mentioned specifically only in Revelation?

We see these 144,000 "standing on Mount Zion" with Jesus. This is a heavenly location because "New Jerusalem" is the heavenly seat of God's worship, pictured by the earthly arrangement in one geographical location concerning the fleshly nation of Israel. We are now dealing with a group of Christians who have no particular geographical location as Jesus said. (John 4:21-24) Christians are an international body. The 144,000 are seen standing with Jesus, having an identification "written on their foreheads" as belonging to Christ and his Father.

These are singing a song that only they know, and it says that they have been "purchased from the earth" being bought by the blood of Christ. They are chaste, or spiritually undefiled. They follow the Lamb in whatever direction he leads them.

They are said to be "firstfruits" meaning that these are selected first from among mankind as those who will occupy positions in heaven as 'kings and priests' to rule over redeemed mankind on earth. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4) "Firstfruits" are the pick of the crop, with the secondary fruits to follow.....who are still perfectly acceptable, but not counted as favorably as the firstfruits.

These are resurrected "first" so that the Kingdom arrangement can begin ruling mankind as soon as God, by his Christ, cleanses the earth of all wickedness and those who practice it. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 25:31-33)

Now let's go to Revelation 7 and see who make up this exclusive group of Christ's followers.

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:. . . . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” (NWT)

Or NASB
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:. . . . After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Is this literal Israel? Does literal Israel attribute salvation to Jesus Christ? Do they recognize Jesus as the one seated on the throne with his Father?

At Galatians 6:16 we will see whom the apostle Paul called "the Israel of God"......it was not just the Jews but those of any nation who came to accept Christ as Messiah and savior. This included Jews who saw Jesus as the one sent by God....the one heralded by John the Baptist....and who were the first to be taken into the Christian arrangement. A Fine Shepherd had led them out of a spiritually contaminated pen and into a new one...clean of all spiritual defilements and without the stain of blood on their hands. Later, Gentiles were added as those offered salvation as well, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that "all nations would bless themselves" by means of the seed that he would send in his lineage. (Genesis 22:18)
By saying that these ones would "bless themselves" he was indicating that they had to take action in order to receive that blessing, just as the first Christians did.

Now notice that there is another group identified as a "great crowd" or "multitude". The first group is numbered but the second group cannot be counted. These are the ones who attribute salvation to God and his son who are seen in heaven surrounded by the 144,000.

Revelation 7:13-15...
"In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them." (NWT)

Or the NASB...
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."

This second group are said to "come out of the great tribulation" which is to occur at the very end of this present system of things. It is included as part of the "sign" that Jesus gave to indicate that he was ruling in his Kingdom. (Matthew 24:3; Matthew 24:21) This meant that Christ's rulership was not to bring peace immediately....rather the opposite, as the Psalmist indicated in Psalm 110:1-2. Messiah was to "rule in the midst of his enemies".

So we see the 144,000 as "spiritual" Israelites, not fleshly Israelites unless they individually come to Christ and acknowledge him as Messiah. (Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:28-29)

Those waiting for literal Israel to be converted to Christianity at the last moment, will be disappointed I believe.
They have had almost 2,000 years to think it over and to this day as a nation, they have not acknowledged 'the one who came in Jehovah's name'. (Matthew 23:37-39) They have found countless reasons to keep denying him.

So what do others believe with regard to the identity of the 144,000?

Before I begin, once again I find it interesting that a religious topic brings in the irreligious to comment. They always hover about, and can´t wait to join a conversation in which they have no real interest, but to scoff.

Who are the 144,000 ?

A rule of Bible study is that what is written is to be taken literally for what it says, unless there are qualifiers stating that it is, or could be symbolic.

As an example, we know that in prophecy a day can symbolize a thousand years. How do we know this ? Because the Bible sets down that rule.

There is a literal Mt. Zion, it was where King David ruled from. There is no reason to believe that that this location is anything but what it says, the literal Mt. Zion on earth.

What is the genesis of these 144,000 people ? The Bible says they come from the 12 tribes of Israel. There is a slight variation in two lists in the book of Revelation regarding the 12 tribes, but the fact isn´t altered these people come from the Jewish bloodline.

So, why are 144,000 Jews given a significant place in the Christian New Testament ?

It says first and foremost that they are redeemed. They are saved Christians.

Second, they exist through the entire tribulation.

Third, What makes them so important and unique ? Being on fire for the Gospel, these Messianic Jews first preach and teach in all Israel, then they and their disciples spread across the earth teaching to all the final opportunity to be saved.

During this terrible period of time, they are steadfast, true to God, and are on fire for Him. They are given power and strength by The Spirit and are rewarded in the end for their work.

The 144,000 are called out of Babylon at the end, for a particular reason, from a particular people.

Representatives of the Jewish people finally complete the work God gave them in the first place, spreading the love of God for all mankind.

They also, as Jews, finally recognize their Messiah, and accept His role for them in His kingdom, as it was supposed to be.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Before I begin, once again I find it interesting that a religious topic brings in the irreligious to comment. They always hover about, and can´t wait to join a conversation in which they have no real interest, but to scoff.
I wish we "irreligious" had a formal association that you could lodge your complaints to. So sorry that such a thing doesn't exist. It really must be so frustrating to be you. I don't envy you your struggles. You're really... uh... courageous.(?)
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
If we assume that a writer/writers chose the number, and taken in the context of a people who didn't realize how many people there potentially could be in the world, it does.

If assumed that God exists and gave them the number, then you're right, it wouldn't make sense to the mind assuming that. I would never make such assumptions, as I believe they are without merit and completely unwarranted. And so I look for more realistic reasons that things are written the way they are. i.e. not that "God" was once giving out information and then suspiciously stopped, but that people made this stuff up, and chose circumstances even for prophecy that "fit" the world and times they experienced. I certainly believe that that's all they had to go on, after all.
So then, it is a religious discussion of theology, why would you even want to comment on it since it has no import in your belief structure ?

It would be like me entering a detailed discussion of the finer points of roller derby when I couldn´t care less about roller derby, the fans of roller derby, or how the game is played.

Why bother ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I wish we "irreligious" had a formal association that you could lodge your complaints to. So sorry that such a thing doesn't exist. It really must be so frustrating to be you. I don't envy you your struggles. You're really... uh... courageous.(?)
It doesn´t bother or frustrate me, I am amused more than anything.

I do wonder about the motive though.

You of course realize that we really couldn´t care less about your opinions, you are simply attempting to be an irritant, like a dose of crabs.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
So then, it is a religious discussion of theology, why would you even want to comment on it since it has no import in your belief structure ?

It would be like me entering a detailed discussion of the finer points of roller derby when I couldn´t care less about roller derby, the fans of roller derby, or how the game is played.

Why bother ?
Because I do care. I wouldn't hail as an "atheist" if I didn't feel some import should be assigned the stance of "theist" in the first place.

And I see my replying to this thread more like this - me walking into a roller derby match because I came with a friend out of mild curiosity, noticing that they were using a technology I deem less accurate or efficient on their skates, and proposing an alternative.

You seem to particularly dislike my opinions... or that I even have an opinion on this topic in the first place. So... couldn't I ask, just as you did, that if you "couldn't care less" about my opinions, you could have just not replied? Why would you even comment on my post if you feel I have nothing to contribute in the first place due to my "irreligious" standing? Why? WHY?! It makes absolutely no sense! I'm having conniption fits just thinking about it... Aughhgulagulagaughhhhh... duh... hur... dur... blah... bleh... *die*

That last sentence wasn't actually real, by the way. Just FYI.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Because I do care. I wouldn't hail as an "atheist" if I didn't feel some import should be assigned the stance of "theist" in the first place.

And I see my replying to this thread more like this - me walking into a roller derby match because I came with a friend out of mild curiosity, noticing that they were using a technology I deem less accurate or efficient on their skates, and proposing an alternative.

You seem to particularly dislike my opinions... or that I even have an opinion on this topic in the first place. So... couldn't I ask, just as you did, that if you "couldn't care less" about my opinions, you could have just not replied? Why would you even comment on my post if you feel I have nothing to contribute in the first place due to my "irreligious" standing? Why? WHY?! It makes absolutely no sense! I'm having conniption fits just thinking about it... Aughhgulagulagaughhhhh... duh... hur... dur... blah... bleh... *die*

That last sentence wasn't actually real, by the way. Just FYI.
Your opinions are irrelevant to me, your motive is relevant.

It is the same with many atheists, you aren´t being singled out.

The only motive I can see for commenting nonsense ( within the context of the discussion and those taking part) is a tiny form of harassment ( if one allows oneself to feel harassed).

I comment to ensure that you know that your apparent motive is known, nothing more.

If this isn´t your purpose, then why comment when you know your view will be utterly rejected and will not be taken seriously ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Gehenna

(originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech ( 2 Chronicles 28:3 ; 33:6 ; Jeremiah 7:31 ; 19:2-6 ).

This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction.

In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 .

In these passages, and also in James 3:6 , the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. (See HELL; HINNOM .)
Correct. The results of this fire are forever. The fire has been out for hundreds and hundreds of years, yet that which was burned is gone, totally destroyed, has ceased to exist.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
This thread was started because of a conversation between @shmogie and myself on the identity of the 144,000, but others are free to join in the discussion.

4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."
Only men who did not defile themselves with women, so virgin men. No deceit in their mouth AND without blemish.
For sure those men you don't find on earth, they must be angels from heaven I guess OR babies just born maybe.

So what do others believe with regard to the identity of the 144,000?

They talk about 144.000 Christians who make it I think. So from the 2000.000.000 Christians not many will make it. And I can understand, because even "do not judge others" is already very hard for humans. And then so many more rules to follow.

Good thing about this number is that it's about the Christians who will make it. So maybe the Hindus will all make it into heaven. Glad I changed from Christian to Hindu religion (Sanathana Dharma). But even My Master said that when you think 24/7 of God alone then you will get enlightenment (at that moment). And you only need to do it 12 hours during MahaShivaratri. Not thinking at all is also an option. Or dedicating all your actions to God. My Master did give two other requirements but I forgot, because thinking 24/7 for 12 hours continuously is already too hard for me.

So I think it is the same in all religions. God seems not so easy to please. The number 144000 seems to be right probably (road is very small, only very few will make it). My Master said 1 out of 1000 starts on spiritual path, then 1 out 1000 continue and only 1 out of these 1000 will make it. So only 7 out of all humans. So the 144.000 Christians seems to be quite a large number maybe. Of course we can fantasize that our group alone will make it, but then we are getting close to judging others and belittling them. Probably already enough for God to kick you out of the 144.000 group.

So I just do my best and leave it all to God who will make it when and where (if that is what it means). Maybe it is just a verse in the Bible to test people if they are still too arrogant to believe that only their group will make it AND that they can decide who will make it, instead of leaving this to God.

In the East they use Koans = kind of problem that is very hard to solve. It is given to make people go crazy with their mind, until they realize that No Mind is the key, NOT solving all kinds of riddles. These numbers and trying to solve them seems to me a bit Koan like.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
If the writers of The Bible had any idea that there would someday be over 7.5 billion people in the world, do you think they would have thrown out a number like 144,000? Even loosely/liberally estimating the population during the time The Bible was written to around 200 million, that puts 144,000 at 0.072%, and the writers of The Bible were almost assuredly ignorant of the actual scope of human population of Earth - and likely only took their most immediately surroundings on their own continent into account when coming up with that number.

When you balloon the number to the current 7.5 billion, that percentage drops to under 0.002%. Between 0.072% and 0.002% is a 3600% difference. And the percentage of people who are in this "chosen" group as a function of the entire population of Earth gets smaller and smaller as time goes on and the population increases.
This is only if you interpret the number literally. Symbolically, the number "12" is often associated with perfection, and the number "thousand" with "uncountable, a great multitude". So 12x1000=a perfect/perfected multitude. Honestly, taking most any of the imagery in Revelation at face value is foolhardy; it certainly wasn't intended that way by the author or read that way by the original recipients of the letter. Sadly, we don't actually know the exact interpretation of the symbology of the Book of Revelation, which is why the Orthodox don't bother reading it on Sunday or at any other time, the Catholics barely talk about it, and fringe whackaloons base their entire ministries on talking about conspiracy theories that they read into the Book.
 
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