shmogie
Well-Known Member
So you reject the teachings of the Apostles ?
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Identifying the 144,000
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
We are not likely to get to know each other. My path beside God has removed all delusion about man's churches, and I have no doubt that if you knew me, you would say that I am bound for Hell Fire. Some feel obligated to judge me though they do not know the circumstances of how I got here. His wishes for me are simple, and my life is empty of most distractions, so can devote myself totally to the wishes of God. I'd provide you with three scriptures that clearly show my path, but you, like so many others would not believe. Peace to you.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Are you a JW, so would know the issues?
Cooky
Veteran Member
Here is a quote that explains how Jesus and the Apostles followed Tradition:
a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.
c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.
d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.
Nowhere in the bible does it claim that it is the sole teaching authority.
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Since I have no belief in hell fire that would be rather difficult.
God never gave humans a heaven or hell scenario in the first place....the simple choice he gave us humans was....obey and live....disobey and die. He left the choice up to us.
Many are dealing with issues from the past.....some better, some worse. I could probably share some of my own circumstances with you. We are not to judge the heart of anyone else....but we must judge their beliefs against the word of God. How else are we to keep our spiritual balance?
What do you see as God's wishes for you at present?
Please provide the scriptures as I base my whole belief system on God's word. We may even have trod similar path? Who knows
Cooky
Veteran Member
What about the hell that Jesus talks about in scripture? The "gnashing of teeth" place?
...The New Testament mentions it, and describes it this way seven times.
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We need to do some math here.....
First of all we have to know the condition of the dead. The Hebrew Scriptures never present the "soul" as something that resides in the body. In ancient Jewish belief, the body was a soul as long as it was breathing. Therefore the soul is mortal, not immortal. Once breathing stops, the soul (person) dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) This is true of both humans and animals who are both called "souls" in the Bible. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (sheol) where you are going."
So a human can only think and feel and plan whilst ever there is breath in them. Once breathing stops, the soul (the whole of what a person is) passes away.
That being the case, the Bible speaks of those who are 'spiritually dead' and I believe it is those who, whilst still alive physically, shake their fist at those who disagree with what they want to believe. The Pharisees did this with Jesus. They hated him and what he said (especially about them) enough to want to kill him.
When Jesus spoke about "gehenna" (translated as "hell" in many Bibles) he was not speaking of a literal fiery hell, but about a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where the bodies of those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial were cast for disposal, not torture. The torture was experienced whilst they were still alive. Jesus teachings condemned them to eternal death.
Matthew 10:28...
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."
Do you see that God "destroys" souls in gehenna? That means a complete obliteration of life. God will never restore them to life again because they failed to respond to the truths that Jesus taught....they saw the demonstration of God's holy spirit but attributed it to the works of the devil, rather than be corrected by God's own son. They resorted to what the wayward Jews had always done.....they silenced the messenger.
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sooda
Veteran Member
You mean because most of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek?
Jesus probably was influenced by Greek.. after all most of his ministry was around Galilee and the Decapolis.
sooda
Veteran Member
An apostle is symbolic of an assignee, an emissary or legate of another individual. The margin between the biblical usage of apostle and disciple is thin.
Nonetheless, there exists a little distinguishable difference. The bible did not tag all disciples as apostles. However, every apostle is a disciple.
Cooky
Veteran Member
We need to do some math here.....
First of all we have to know the condition of the dead. The Hebrew Scriptures never present the "soul" as something that resides in the body. In ancient Jewish belief, the body was a soul as long as it was breathing. Therefore the soul is mortal, not immortal. Once breathing stops, the soul (person) dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) This is true of both humans and animals who are both called "souls" in the Bible. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.. . . .10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (sheol) where you are going."
So a human can only think and feel and plan whilst ever there is breath in them. Once breathing stops, the soul (the whole of what a person is) passes away.
That being the case, the Bible speaks of those who are 'spiritually dead' and I believe it is those who, whilst still alive physically, shake their fist at those who disagree with what they want to believe. The Pharisees did this with Jesus. They hated him and what he said (especially about them) enough to want to kill him.
When Jesus spoke about "gehenna" (translated as "hell" in many Bibles) he was not speaking of a literal fiery hell, but about a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where the bodies of those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial were cast for disposal, not torture. The torture was experienced whilst they were still alive. Jesus teachings condemned them to eternal death.
Matthew 10:28...
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."
Do you see that God "destroys" souls in gehenna? That means a complete obliteration of life. God will never restore them to life again because they failed to respond to the truths that Jesus taught....they saw the demonstration of God's holy spirit but attributed it to the works of the devil, rather than be corrected by God's own son. They resorted to what the wayward Jews had always done.....they silenced the messenger.
So what did Jesus mean when he said there would be gnashing of teeth and weeping. Was he mistaken?
Also, why go to Gehenna to be destroyed? Makes no sense.
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Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Wasn't Aramaic what he spoke?
sooda
Veteran Member
Greek and Aramaic.. Not much Hebrew after the Babylonian exile.
What Language Did Jesus Speak?
The area around Galilee and the Decapolis were more cosmopolitan and prosperous than Jerusalem.
InChrist
Free4ever
I believe the identity of the 144,000 in Revelation is explicitly given. They are exactly who the scriptures say they are...And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev. 7:4), twelve thousand from each of the tribes listed. In the scriptures Israel always means national Israel.
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were a]">[a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. (Rev. 7:5-8)
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were a]">[a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. (Rev. 7:5-8)
Cooky
Veteran Member
Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions:
a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.
c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.
d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.
sooda
Veteran Member
Sealed as in marked or authenticated?
Koine Greek was the common tongue of the day...the Greek influence in culture, religion and language was felt over a wide area.
Because Jesus was the son of God and totally instructed by his Father, not the religious leaders of Judaism, no outside (pagan) influence would have supplanted the truth in his mind.
Why do you give Jesus spiritual limitations when he demonstrated none. The only limitations he had was due to his human flesh.
An exhausted and battered man did not last long enough on his torture stake for the Romans to even have to break his legs to hasten death. Mercifully, he died before they had to do that.
Do you doubt that weeping and gnashing of teeth took place when Jesus was mentioned among the religious leaders? Not sad weeping, but angry tears! He did not pull any punches. (Matthew 23)
Jesus' apostles too were on the receiving end of Jewish inspired persecution. Not a few times was Paul beaten almost to death. What kind of hate filled anger would prompt such actions?
We even see people who call themselves Christians, very stirred up today when some people behave in a way that they think is wrong. Those who bomb abortion clinics become the very thing they are protesting about...murderers!
The RCC was none too kind to anyone who dared to raise an objection to their doctrines for centuries. No one lived to tell the truth.
Gehenna is not a place....it is a state on not being. It is complete annihilation from the human race.
"Gehenna" is equivalent to the "lake of fire" in Revelation....it is called "the second death"...why?....because this death has no resurrection....it is being left in death forever. Like being thrown onto a burning rubbish pile and having nothing left but ashes. The fire is not real...it is a fitting symbol of destruction.
sooda
Veteran Member
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/DJG RICH AND POOR.pdf
The real problem in first-century Judaism was that of poverty, especially the poverty of the righteous. Some anthropologically oriented scholars argue that the poverty that was a problem was that caused by the loss of one’s inherited position, whether that position was economically rich or poor.
This resulted in the OT categories of poor as noted above (cf. Malina 1981, 84).
However, although this may have been true for the OT period, it does not completely fit that of the NT.
A number of rabbinic sayings note the economic misery of the life of the poorer peasant (e.g., Lev Rab. 34:6 on Lev 25:25; b. B. Bat. 116a; b. Sanh. 151b). As it was later expressed, “There is nothing in the world more grievous than poverty—the most terrible of all sufferings. Our Teachers said: all sufferings are on one side and poverty is on the other” (Ex R. 31:12 on Ex 22:24).
Furthermore, the Jesus tradition (e.g., Lk 6) contrasts the poor, not with the greedy or the wicked (as in the OT), but with the rich, showing that economic issues had become more important.
James also exhibits this pattern. Economic lack was a problem, even if inherited social status was not ignored. The first response of Judaism to the poor was to encourage the voluntary sharing of wealth, for outside of assistance from a person’s extended family, charity or almsgiving was the only form of social assistance available.
Governments of that day only intervened, if at all, when mass starvation was threatened (and in those cases the motives were to preserve future tax revenues and prevent social unrest). Almsgiving included (1) private charitable actions (e.g., giving to a beggar, forgiving a debt, providing for the proper burial of an impoverished person), which in the case of the wealthy could include significant aid to large areas (Queen Helena of Adiabene, for example, sent major food aid to Jerusalem in the 40s); (2) group charitable actions (i.e., those organized through a village council of elders or a synagogue); (3) religious charity (e.g., the charitable fund collected and distributed through the Temple). Later Judaism would develop a highly organized system of collection and distribution of charity. In the first century, however, individual initiative in almsgiving was the primary force.
The giving of alms was therefore viewed by Judaism in general as a very important righteous work in the eyes of God.
In fact, in rabbinic Judaism only meditation on Torah could have outranked charity as a righteous deed. Deeds of charity were seen as greater...
Much more at the link.
sooda
Veteran Member
Gehenna is a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.
Gehenna - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
sooda
Veteran Member
Rich and Poor in the Teaching of Jesus. Jesus fits into the social situation of first-century Palestine as we have come to know it. He himself belonged to the people of the land as the son of a carpenter who owned neither inherited land nor land he had acquired himself (Mt 8:20; Lk 9:58).
He was not an officially recognized teacher, but a charismatic leader with a ragtag group of followers (which explains the negative response to him in Nazareth, where his class origins were well known, Mk 6:3).
He accepted the outcasts of society and was frequently found associating with the poor. This provides the immediate context for his teaching.
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/DJG RICH AND POOR.pdf
He was not an officially recognized teacher, but a charismatic leader with a ragtag group of followers (which explains the negative response to him in Nazareth, where his class origins were well known, Mk 6:3).
He accepted the outcasts of society and was frequently found associating with the poor. This provides the immediate context for his teaching.
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/DJG RICH AND POOR.pdf