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Identification of Keturah with Hagar

Discussion in 'Judaism DIR' started by Rival, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    It's a common tradition that Keturah and Hagar are the same; still, I read a note in my Chumash that states that Rashbam and Ibn Ezra disagree with this view but it doesn't explain why. It then says that Keturah is a Canaanite woman, not an Egyptian as Hagar. If this is the case, how are the two reconciled and what are the Rabbis' disagreements if any other than this?
     
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  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The Ibn Ezra writes
    "This cannot be Hagar because in verse 6, Scripture refers to Avraham’s concubines in the plural."

    The Rashbam writes
    "according to the plain meaning of the text this woman was not identical with Hagar."

    Rashi and others are referencing a midrash that Keturah was a renamed Hagar (though I don't see where the "Canaanite" reference is) and it would seem that the Ibn Ezra and Rashbam would say that the midrash cannot be taken literally.
     
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  3. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Rav Amnon Bazak in "Until This Day" wrote on this Rashbam, saying: "presumably because the Torah wouldn't talk about such a well-known character without making any mention of her name".
     
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  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    So, referring to Genesis 25:5, Rashi writes:

    הפילגשים THE CONCUBINES — The word is written deficient, (without י, but our texts have a י in both places) because he had only one concubine, Hagar, who is identical with Keturah. Wives are those whom a man marries with a marriage-contract (Ketubah): concubines have no marriage contract, as we explain in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 21a) in reference to David’s wives and concubines.
    I do not understand. Where is it written deficient and why would that lead to the identification of Hagar with Keturah.
     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The R. Bahya indicates that this is a reference to the medrash B. Rabbah
    https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.25....ahya&lang2=en&p3=Berei****_Rabbah.61&lang3=en

    and the Gur Aryeh discusses what the final mem would indicate even without the yod.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    the argument rests on the claim of a text which faith indicates is authoritative and only if taken literally which might not be the right approach.
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You will not be surprised to read that I find such things deeply unsettling, but that's for a different and more challenging thread.
     
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  9. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Then why not interpret it logically, metaphorically?
    It seems like you accept, even embrace illogical thinking, I think.
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You draw an erroneous generalized conclusion, inextricable and inevitably tying logical thinking with metaphorical interpretation. You seem to endorse an untenable position. If you don't like the reading I am presenting (though I have not indicated my own position on it) you should start a thread in a "debate" section as here, your questioning me instead of commenting on the content of the top post is inappropriate.
     
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  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @Jake1001 ,

    So... What's the metaphor in this part of the story?
     
  12. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Rabbi states:

    “the argument rests on the claim of a text which faith indicates is authoritative and only if taken literally which might not be the right approach.”

    And indicates that literal approach may not be correct.
     
  13. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Good point, dyb, I’ve reviewed this thread and agree there is no metaphoric lesson here, so its really a non-starter.

    I suppose the closest we get to significance is they are like two women, one from Queens and the other, Brooklyn. At least that is metaphoric.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Agreed.

    If I remember the story, Hagar rec'd the new name after her encounter with the Angel. The experience changed her, made her into a new person? Maybe she was the first Baal Teshuvah?
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Where can we find this story?
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The story of Hagar and the Angel is Gen 16. Abraham remarried her with the new name after that, Gen 25. But I'm guessing you already know that. :)
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Perhaps I misunderstood. You wrote:


    Where in the Torah does it describe her receiving a new name?
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    You're right, it doesn't list that in Torah. It's described in Midrash Says. I can find you a page number, if it's helpful.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, thanks. This has been addressed in posts #4 through #8. I thought you were offering something new.
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Yes, I remember your posts. I was just striking up a conversation with Jake. :)
     
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