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Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by atanu, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I expect this poll to generate about 80-20 result in favour of materialism. But my point is that, like in politics, the opinions in most cases are not well reasoned out. I intend to explore the reasons for majority belief in materialistic worldview and hopefully persuade a few to consider the alternative 'Idealism'.

    First, the terms involved are defined briefly below.

    Idealism: Reality consists exclusively of mind and its contents.

    Added for clarification
    (Idealism - Wikipedia)
    In philosophy, idealism is the group of metaphysical philosophies that assert that reality, or reality as humans can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing.

    The term Mind may or may not be limited to an individual’s mind.

    Realism: Reality exists outside and independent of mind;

    Materialism entails realism but goes beyond it: it postulates not only that matter exists outside mind, but that mind itself is generated by matter.

    Added for clarification: For this poll, please consider ‘material’ to mean ‘physical’ and ‘materialism’ to signify the more general term ‘physicalism’.​

    Please record your reasons for your being a materialist or an idealist.
     
    #1 atanu, Aug 25, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  2. Phaedrus

    Phaedrus Active Member

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    Religion:
    Anti-theist
    Idealism:
    the practice of forming or pursuing ideals, especially unrealistically.
    PHILOSOPHY
    any of various systems of thought in which the objects of knowledge are held to be in some way dependent on the activity of mind.


    Materialism:
    a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.
    PHILOSOPHY
    the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

    So I voted no. Therefore, that makes me a materialist.
     
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  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I would probably more closely fit realism than idealism or materialism, but you didn’t include it in your binary poll
     
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  4. idav

    idav Being
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    I lean more towards materialism but it really depends on how you want to define substance. I am not opposed to material all being light sound or thought but even then I imagine reality as a wave function which is actually both material and not material simultaneously.
    Wave–particle duality - Wikipedia
     
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  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    The definitions seem a bit absolute.
     
    #5 Desert Snake, Aug 25, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Not sure how that definition of idealism makes sense.
     
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Or rather, your definition of idealism doesn't make sense.
     
  8. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Let me explain it. In philosophy, idealism is the group of metaphysical philosophies that assert that reality, or reality as humans can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing.

    Idealism - Wikipedia
     
  9. atanu

    atanu Member
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    For this poll, material is physical and materialism is physicalism.

    With this clarification, I will request you to reason out your choice.
     
  10. idav

    idav Being
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    It's neither and both.
     
  11. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Okay. But why ‘realism’?
     
  12. atanu

    atanu Member
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    You have not included any reasoning as to why ‘materialism’ is your choice.
     
  13. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Because to me reality is all that exists, part of what exists is within the mind, but a significant portion of the dust of the universe exists outside and independently of the mind.

    To me it seems self evident.
     
  14. Heyo

    Heyo Active Member

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    According to your definitions I'm leaning more to materialism because I believe in an objective reality. The belief in reality is one of the axioms of science. You can't do science without it and the scientific method is the most successful tool invented by humans when it come to knowledge and problem solving.
    But I also believe in the platonic "realm of ideals". I.e., I think that mathematics is discovered, not invented. Mathematics is not real but it is objective. All mathematicians agree on mathematical laws and they have been discovered independently by many cultures. We assume that aliens that could communicate with us will have discovered mathematics, too.
     
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    as a spiritual being encased in a material thing, encased in mud, I have needs that must be met before I can focus on spiritual needs. if i got forced into this density, then i have to maintain my material existence; in order, to figure out why. if i came willingly into this material existence, then i still need to meet certain material needs at a minimum before being able to complete the mission i was sent on.


    so creating a duality, difference between these two is not going to make me any more brahman than I ALREADY AM.
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    It seems like a mix of not necessarily inherent to each other ideas.

    So, I'll go with realist on this, even though there are too many concepts there to be voting in that manner.
     
  17. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I think that we have some misconceptions about implications of realism-materialism. Can we examine the situation?

    According to REALISM, the real world is ‘some’ abstract realm of interacting electromagnetic fields that we cannot even visualize. Materialism entails realism and also postulates that not only matter exists outside mind, but that mind itself is generated by matter. According to materialism, what we experience every day is not the world as such, but a kind of brain-constructed ‘copy’ of the world.

    Therefore, all reality we can ever know directly – is but an internal ‘copy’ of the ‘real reality.’ Materialism, thus, requires a doubling of all reality: it presupposes an abstract and unprovable ‘external’ universe next to the known, concrete, and undeniable universe of direct experience. The real world, according to current day materialism, is some abstract realm of interacting electromagnetic fields that we cannot even visualize.

    As evolution favors physical survival, not per se the accuracy or completeness of internal representations, if materialism is right, then it cannot be trusted. Furthermore, if all that exists is matter, and if consciousness is somehow produced by the suitable arrangement of matter represented by the brain, then all subjective perception must only be residing in the brain. There is no phenomenal quality in the external-out there world.

    To summarise. The explosive combination of the concept of realism (that there is an objective world out there) and the brain generated picture of that objective world may not be at all real.
     
  18. Heyo

    Heyo Active Member

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    First of, you created the dichotomy of materialism/idealism. I only responded to that limited choice in saying that that I lean more to materialism given the choices and the definitions.
    I think realism/idealism is not an either/or choice. You may call me an objectivist. Reality (the physical world) exists objectively because we can experience it and agree on its existence. The realm of ideals exists objectively because we can think it and agree on its existence. The realms are separated by the method we detect them and by the laws they follow.
     
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  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Going by your definitions, Im a 'realist'
    Not a materialist, or a idealist.

    Not sure if you are saying realism is materialism, or what. Im not a materialist, and idealism going by that definition, not at all.

    So, you need to clarify if you consider realism to be "same' as materialism, which I don't going by those definitions.
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    In other words, realism, agreed upon perception, yet not a "materialist", [which should be obvious, it seems.

    Realism "reality", and materialism aren't the same thing. You dont need to be a materialist, to be a realist.
     
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