Idaho bans transgender person from athletics or changing gender of birth certificates

[Skwim]

Just to keep things straight, 66% of that chart confirms exactly what I said.

Which is pretty meaningless because 48% of that 66% DO accept evolution. That they believe god has a hand in it is irrelevant. Other than those evolutionists who outright reject the existence of god, not a large number---most atheists simply contend there's insufficient evidence to believe there's a god (the possibility is still open)---no evolutionist has ever said the processes of natural evolution could not be guided by god. It's just that they've yet to find any evidence for it so have no reason to include him. So we're still left with 18% who hold that humans always existed in their present form, and 81% who believe they evolved into their present form.

.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which is pretty meaningless because 48% of that 66% DO accept evolution. That they believe god has a hand in it is irrelevant. Other than those evolutionists who outright reject the existence of god, not a large number---most atheists simply contend there's insufficient evidence to believe there's a god (the possibility is still open)---no evolutionist has ever said the processes of natural evolution could not be guided by god. It's just that they've yet to find any evidence for it so have no reason to include him. So we're still left with 18% who hold that humans always existed in their present form, and 81% who believe they evolved into their present form.

.

Let me repet myself as you seem to have a problem with hkw English,

or accept it but attach divine guidance to it,

This means that my statement did im fact include the 48%, nealy half the population, as "attach divine guidance" does men the exact same thing as "guided by god."

 

[Skwim]

Let me repet myself as you seem to have a problem with hkw English,


This means that my statement did im fact include the 48%, nealy half the population, as "attach divine guidance" does men the exact same thing as "guided by god."

So, what did you mean when you said, "Just to keep things straight, 66% of that chart confirms exactly what I said." if it wasn't combining the 18% who deny evolution and the 48% who are guided by god to put evolution into motion?---the only way I see you coming up with 66%. And by combining the 48% implies you mean to put them in the same camp as the 18% deniers, and NOT with the 33% who believe in natural evolution. Ya can't have it both ways S. W..

.

 

[Milton Platt]

What hateful garbage. We have a pandemic going on and this is what some choose to focus on? Shouldn't be surprised that it comes from an insignificant craphole like Idaho. Funny that the only movie that I can think of with the word Idaho in its name is a gay movie (My Private Idaho).

The attack against Idaho as a state aside, I agree with you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, what did you mean when you said, "Just to keep things straight, 66% of that chart confirms exactly what I said." if it wasn't combining the 18% who deny evolution and the 48% who are guided by god to put evolution into motion?---the only way I see you coming up with 66%. And by combining the 48% implies you mean to put them in the same camp as the 18% deniers, and NOT with the 33% who believe in natural evolution. Ya can't have it both ways S. W..

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Lets do some basic math.
We have a set of four numbers {18, 48, 33, 66}. We know it must be set up 18 + x = 66. 18 as we agree this is the number of those who reject evolution. Its also the number we "cancel out," giving us 18-18+x=66-18. Leaving us with, after the "clean up," x=48.
So, yeah, given by the mechanics of the English language and with mathematical proof we know exactly what group I included in my statement. No trying to have it both ways on my part, just failure to comprehend elementary concepts on your part.

 

[Heyo]

Research has shown that the vast majority of gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria by adolescence (80%-94%) - therefore - we should wait until they have reached cognitive maturity before allowing them to make such decisions.

They are children and children cannot consent.

We should let science lead the way - not ideologues.

Sounds as if we agree. Just to be clear and resolve the marked ambiguity:
- No hormone replacement therapy or surgery for children.
- Puberty suppressants allow children to reach cognitive maturity without having to decide which way to go as children. They are therefore a good thing.
That is what scientist recommend and we should follow their lead.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

As far as I can tell, my original word was "plenty." To speak on my character, you most likely are wrong on this because I am very careful in chosing words of vague estimations and nonspecific quantities. I'm also often aware of the "popularity" of many of my views, including those that rank low among my peers.

I never said that you used either word "most" or "majority". Those are the words that I used.

I don't understand where this confusion is coming from. I will try to simplify it.

You quoted me when I said "because the majority of people" and claimed that I had "put words into your mouth".

I don't understand this.

I was the one who said "most" or "majority".

However - what you said in response to my use of these words is my main point.

After I claimed that "most of us" believed that hormone replacement therapy was child abuse, you said -

"Good thing medicine and science aren't popularity contests."

This was you agreeing that "most of us" or the "majority" of people believe that hormone replacement therapy is child abuse.

You also seem to allude to this fact in this post when you talk about knowing that many of your views are not popular.

The fact that hormone replacement therapy for children is unpopular is what led you to claim that it's a "Good thing medicine and science aren't popularity contests."

You basically know that it is unpopular. You know that the majority of people do not agree with it.

But you don't care - because you have your agenda. You place your own opinions and beliefs before the right that children have not to be taken advantage of.

You know that it is child abuse because children cannot give consent - but you don't care.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Amd to give a more clear example, the majority of Americans reject evolution, or accept it but attach divine guidance to it, and also believe in things like ghosts. But there are plenty enough of us who don't that it's very inaccurate to characterize the behavior of all Americans.

Rejecting evolution or putting a "divine" spin to it doesn't take advantage of children.

Basically - people are free to believe and do what they want - as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Children cannot give consent. They need to wait until they have achieved cognitive maturity before making these kinds of decisions.

Hormone replacement therapy is child abuse.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Sounds as if we agree. Just to be clear and resolve the marked ambiguity:
- No hormone replacement therapy or surgery for children.
- Puberty suppressants allow children to reach cognitive maturity without having to decide which way to go as children. They are therefore a good thing.
That is what scientist recommend and we should follow their lead.

I do not agree with this.

The jury is still out on what long term effects puberty suppressants can have on the brain.

Also there is the obvious potential risk to fertility and bone development.

There is also the idea that it is puberty itself that can solidify the child's desire to transition or not.

As I said before "the vast majority of gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria by adolescence"

If they cannot experience "adolescence" (which depends on the effects of puberty) how can they make an informed decision?

Let children be children.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Rejecting evolution or putting a "divine" spin to it doesn't take advantage of children.

Neither does medicine. And, yes, your beliefs do far more damage than you'll ever admit or own up to.

Children cannot give consent. They need to wait until they have achieved cognitive maturity before making these kinds of decisions.

Do you have any idea how much we already let children do? That aren't fragile, delicate, glass flowers.

 

[Heyo]

I do not agree with this.

The jury is still out on what long term effects puberty suppressants can have on the brain.

Also there is the obvious potential risk to fertility and bone development.

And the doctors, psychologists and scientists have decided that the risk is worth it. So, do you heed your own advice to follow the science or do you make exceptions if it contradicts your ideology?

There is also the idea that it is puberty itself that can solidify the child's desire to transition or not.

As I said before "the vast majority of gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria by adolescence"

For the vast majority of children it is a bad idea to inject insulin. Therefore no child should inject insulin.
Do you see how this appeal to the majority doesn't work here?

If they cannot experience "adolescence" (which depends on the effects of puberty) how can they make an informed decision?

Let children be children.

Yes, let them. We have the possibility to overcome nature which forces children into puberty, if they want or not. We can give them the liberty to decide when they are old enough to decide. Not using this possibility is forcing them to adhere to your ideology. With the same logic you could demand to prohibit plastic surgery for birth defects. Just let nature run its course?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Neither does medicine.

That is not historically accurate.

Medicine and science have taken advantage of many people.

We should try to prevent this - not justify it.

And, yes, your beliefs do far more damage than you'll ever admit or own up to.

This is an opinion.

Children not being able to give consent is a fact.

Notice the difference?

Do you have any idea how much we already let children do?

Like what?

That aren't fragile, delicate, glass flowers.

Are you arguing that children can consent?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

And the doctors, psychologists and scientists have decided that the risk is worth it.

Are these the same doctors, psychologists and scientists that decided to perform hormone replacement therapy on children?

You don't see any reason to doubt doctors, psychologists and scientists in regards to this highly politicized issue?

So, do you heed your own advice to follow the science or do you make exceptions if it contradicts your ideology?

Yeah - only I can be blinded by my person ideology. (Sarcasm)

These doctors, psychologists and scientists could never be motivated by their personal feelings, agendas or ideologies. (Sarcasm)

The only "ideology" that I am proposing is that children cannot give consent and they should be able to experience puberty in order to make a decision about transitioning.

How could they ever know if they want to be a man or a woman if they are not allowed to experience what it is like to be either?

For the vast majority of children it is a bad idea to inject insulin. Therefore no child should inject insulin.

This is so dumb.

There are blood tests that prove whether or not someone needs insulin.

You don't tell a child to take insulin if they "feel like they may be diabetic".

Puberty will prove to the child if they want to live as their biological sex or not.

The idea that you don't even want them to have that experience - to help them make their decision - shows who is being driven by their ideology here.

Do you see how this appeal to the majority doesn't work here?

Not an appeal to majority - one of empirical probability.

Children who suffer from gender dysphoria are more likely to outgrow it during their adolescence than not.

Focus your fanaticism on those children that don't grow out of it.

Yes, let them. We have the possibility to overcome nature which forces children into puberty, if they want or not. We can give them the liberty to decide when they are old enough to decide. Not using this possibility is forcing them to adhere to your ideology. With the same logic you could demand to prohibit plastic surgery for birth defects. Just let nature run its course?

An adult can take any hormones and have any surgeries they want.

I am not forcing anyone to adhere to my ideology.

Unless the "ideology" you are referring to is "don't take advantage of children" - then yes I am guilty of that.

Stop trying to force your ideology on vulnerable children.

 

[Heyo]

Are these the same doctors, psychologists and scientists that decided to perform hormone replacement therapy on children?

I don't know. It may be so that they had new data that changed their minds. Science is always the current consensus - which might change.
I'm willing to follow the evidence and with evidence I might change my opinion.

The only "ideology" that I am proposing is that children cannot give consent and they should be able to experience puberty in order to make a decision about transitioning.

How could they ever know if they want to be a man or a woman if they are not allowed to experience what it is like to be either?

Just ask them. Puberty blockers don't prevent children from experiencing puberty. They only delay that experience into a time when the young adults can make a decision. They may be sure they want to transition without going through puberty as the gender they don't feel they are. They may decide to suspend the puberty blockers to experience the "wrong" puberty. It's up to them.

The idea that you don't even want them to have that experience - to help them make their decision - shows who is being driven by their ideology here.

I don't want to force them to have that experience - you do.
I don't want to prevent them from that experience, I want them to be able to decide if they want that experience, at an age when they can make that decision.

I am not forcing anyone to adhere to my ideology.

Unless the "ideology" you are referring to is "don't take advantage of children" - then yes I am guilty of that.

Stop trying to force your ideology on vulnerable children.

I'm not. The only thing I'm forcing them to do is to wait.

What I'm saying is: "We won't let you have hormone therapy or surgery until you are <age of consent>. You have the option to take puberty suppressants, that much is in your decision. You can also stop taking them at any time."

What you are saying is: "We won't let you have hormone therapy or surgery until you are <age of consent>. We will also force you to go through puberty until <age of consent> because that will most likely change your mind and will also make it harder to transition if you still want to."

What sounds more authoritarian to you? (And are you OK with that authoritarianism?)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is not historically accurate.

True, but you've only given belief in regard to this and have tried to degrade my position to one of belief and opinion. Mine is informed by science and medicine. Yours is based on emotion.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I don't know. It may be so that they had new data that changed their minds. Science is always the current consensus - which might change.
I'm willing to follow the evidence and with evidence I might change my opinion.

Are you sure that you're willing to change your opinion?

Because I shared the fact (i.e. data) about the overwhelming majority of children "outgrowing" their dysphoria during their adolescence.

Yet - you continue to argue that we should delay puberty (i.e. adolescence) - which contains the completely natural changes that these children need to experience in order to help them make a decision.

How can they know that they do not identify as either a man or a woman if they have never experienced what it is like to be either?

I know that you are trying to appear neutral or "non-authoritarian" - but it sounds like you want to "tip the scales" in favor of transgenderism.

Also - let's not forget that this has become a business and all these doctors and psychologists want people to take hormones and need therapy.

Also - who do you think these kids will go to if they decide - after the fact - that they made the wrong decision and want to "de-transition"?

It's a racket - because these "professionals" are going to get your business either way.

Just ask them.

We should definitely be asking those kinds of questions - but since they have not acquired cognitive maturity - their answers should not be given the same weight as an adult.

Children cannot give consent. They are vulnerable and can easily be taken advantage of.

This idea that we should act on their immature answers is dangerous.

Puberty blockers don't prevent children from experiencing puberty. They only delay that experience into a time when the young adults can make a decision.

If you delay those experiences - they are not "young adults" when asked to make a decision - but large children.

Large children with bone development deficiencies and likely infertility. Not to mention the possible brain damage.

If the vast majority of children outgrow their dysphoria during their adolescence - why would you want to delay them receiving that experience/information?

Unless - of course - you are attempting to "tip the scales" in favor of transgenderism.

That's like holding back key evidence in a trial.

These children need to make this decision on their own.

They may be sure they want to transition without going through puberty as the gender they don't feel they are.

An eight-year-old boy does not know what it feels like to be a man - so how can he make any sort of informed decision?

They may decide to suspend the puberty blockers to experience the "wrong" puberty. It's up to them.

There is no "right" or "wrong" puberty.

A biological male will never experience "female puberty" - no matter how many hormones you give him.

Facts prove that it is puberty that helps children decide whether they are actually suffering from dysphoria or not.

It is puberty that decides whether they "outgrow" it or not.

Children are not capable of making these kinds of decisions. They do not know how to weigh the potential risks nor do they have the necessary life-experience or cognitive maturity.

I don't want to force them to have that experience - you do.

No - I did not "create" puberty. That has been going on since the beginning of complex biological life.

Whether you are pushing God or evolution - puberty just happens to all of us.

And it is a (or the) key component to helping children make a decision.

I don't want to prevent them from that experience, I want them to be able to decide if they want that experience, at an age when they can make that decision.

I believe this to be a very unhealthy mentality that patronizes these children.

First - you can't "play God". This isn't Gattaca. We should not be pumping drugs into our children in order to give them the experiences we want for them.

Puberty happens to everyone. It generally sucks for everyone. However - it is a crucial process for everyone because it helps them decide who and what they want to be.

Second - how far are you willing to take this argument?

What if I don't like how my baby cries because his teeth are coming in? Should I "delay" him that experience?

What if I don't want my baby walking yet. I want a few more months before I have to "baby-proof" everything. Should I put his legs in a cast?

What other experiences are you willing to "delay" because you think you know better than all biological history?

Puberty comes right on time. And it's going to suck for everyone involved.

Lastly - why do you think children with dysphoria aren't strong or smart enough to handle natural processes that every other kid their age experiences?

If a child truly suffers from dysphoria - puberty isn't going to change their desire to transition.

However - since the majority of children who claim to suffer from dysphoria "outgrow" it during adolescence -delaying puberty would just leave the majority of these children confused - and most likely uncomfortable or miserable - for longer.

I'm not. The only thing I'm forcing them to do is to wait.

Thank you for admitting that you want to "force" them to wait.

You see - I am not the "active ingredient" to puberty. I don't make it happen. The child's body and brain do that. Their "biological clock" - as it were.

My wanting to leave them to their natural processes - in order to better make an informed decision - is not me "forcing" anything.

As a parent - I don't want to put any drugs into my children unless it is absolutely necessary.

If most children outgrow their dysphoria in their adolescence - as a parent - I'd like to know whether or not my child is experiencing actual dysphoria or not.

I'd also want them to have all relevant information and experience that they would need to make their decision.

Also - if there is any amount of "risk" involved in any drug or procedure that hasn't been proven to be absolutely necessary - keep it away from my kid.

What I'm saying is: "We won't let you have hormone therapy or surgery until you are <age of consent>. You have the option to take puberty suppressants, that much is in your decision. You can also stop taking them at any time."

You have yet to prove that suppressing puberty even helps them make their decision.

Considering the fact that most children outgrow it - delaying their puberty is an attempt to "tip the scales" in favor of transgenderism.

What you are saying is: "We won't let you have hormone therapy or surgery until you are <age of consent>. We will also force you to go through puberty until <age of consent> because that will most likely change your mind and will also make it harder to transition if you still want to."

Other than the whole "force" thing - because I don't "force" anyone to do anything - you are correct.

We should err on the side of caution.

We should not halt our children's natural processes - which incurs various risks - on the off-chance that they actually want to transition.

Yes - it might make it harder to transition - but that's better than making a mistake and needing to "de-transition" which can never truly happen because many of the effects of transitioning are irreversible.

Basically - I'd much rather risk making a transition harder for the minority of children than do irreparable harm to the majority.

What sounds more authoritarian to you? (And are you OK with that authoritarianism?)

You say "authoritarian" - I say "not taking advantage of vulnerable children".

I honestly believe you are an ideologue who favors transitioning - despite the fact that most children "outgrow" their dysphoria during their adolesence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yet - you continue to argue that we should delay puberty (i.e. adolescence) - which contains the completely natural changes that these children need to experience in order to help them make a decision.

As you are so poorly and underinformed, when puberty blocking drugs are stopped then puberty carries on as normal. Which is not good for those with gender dysphoria.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

True, but you've only given belief in regard to this and have tried to degrade my position to one of belief and opinion. Mine is informed by science and medicine. Yours is based on emotion.

The fact that children cannot give consent is...a fact. It's not my opinion.

I never said that children cannot suffer from dysphoria or that they cannot decide to transition.

They would just need to wait until they are a legal adult to begin any transition process.

No amount of science and medicine magically changes children into consenting adults.

These are facts.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

As you are so poorly and underinformed, when puberty blocking drugs are stopped then puberty carries on as normal. Which is not good for those with gender dysphoria.

You cannot even determine that the child even has gender dysphoria until they experience puberty.

As I have said numerous times the vast majority of child who claim to suffer from gender dysphoria outgrow it during their adolescence.

Delaying puberty is delaying their ability to determine if they have gender dysphoria or not.

Basically - you are "pushing" them toward hormones and transitioning.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact that children cannot give consent is...a fact. It's not my opinion.

I never said that children cannot suffer from dysphoria or that they cannot decide to transition.

They would just need to wait until they are a legal adult to begin any transition process.

No amount of science and medicine magically changes children into consenting adults.

These are facts.

Its actually rare for a minor to be prescribed hormones (most doctors will not do it). You'd know this is you knew real facts and information about this instead of clinging to your beliefs instead of educating yourself on this.
And, BTW, yes, children can consent such as how teens can consent and choose which parent they live with of the parents separate.