I would rather be dead.

[OUAD BAR]

Yeah, we have the power of conscious knowledge and rational thought but everyone is not using that.

We.... what is this We ? Conscious knowledge ? You are whatever it makes you. You have power ? You are breathed and exist only because of it. You what ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

We.... what is this We ? Conscious knowledge ? You are whatever it makes you. You have power ? You are breathed and exist only because of it. You what ?

I was repeating what my esteemed friend Tony Bristow-Stagg said in his post # 198.
I would rather be dead.
Then, there is unconscious knowledge. I think he meant what causes a particular instantaneous reaction. Something deep-seated in brain. Like his reaction as a theist and mine as an atheist.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes that's what I meant. We have wasps on the temple property where I landscape. Generally they build away from high traffic areas, so i put up a caution sign. But once they built in a hedge about 3 meters from the front main entrance. I got rid of that one. The vast majority don't bother humans.

As far as I understand Hindu beliefs, and perhaps this is not the thread to discuss them so excuse me if there is another thread to discuss this, I was under the impression that, according to Hindu belief, the soul can transmigrate upon death of the body from, let's say, human to animal, or vice versa. Or from one caste to another. Is that what you believe, and is that a Hindu teaching?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I was under the impression that, according to Hindu belief, the soul can transmigrate upon death of the body from, let's say, human to animal, or vice versa. Or from one caste to another. Is that what you believe, and is that a Hindu teaching?

What any Hindu believes is a personal matter and people will have different views. I do not believe in existence of God, soul or rebirth. But talking of majority, you are correct. Hindus believe that to be true. Form and birth position/situation according to one's 'karmas' (deeds in previous lives).

 

[Aupmanyav]

OK, so is it that you believe it's selective as to which creatures you will kill? If I can encourage bees (which we very much need), I will do so. However, if a wonderful beehive sets up near my front entrance, I'm afraid I'll have to do something about it, as mercifully as possible, but chances are it may not go in the beehives' favor. However, I'll try.

Removing a bee-hive is a relocation. I do not think the bees will die. They will make a hive at some other place. Though I cannot say that for the larvae/pupa.

 

[YoursTrue]

As far as I understand Hindu beliefs, and perhaps this is not the thread to discuss them so excuse me if there is another thread to discuss this, I was under the impression that, according to Hindu belief, the soul can transmigrate upon death of the body from, let's say, human to animal, or vice versa. Or from one caste to another. Is that what you believe, and is that a Hindu teaching?

What any Hindu believes is a personal matter and people will have different views. I do not believe in existence of God, soul or rebirth. But talking of majority, you are correct. Hindus believe that to be true. Form and birth position/situation according to one's 'karmas' (deeds in previous lives).

May I ask you a question? First, are you a Hindu? And second, are you saying that a Hindu can still be a Hindu and yet make up his own ideas about the soul, gods, descending upper or lower according to karma? OK, I asked you more than one question. Thank you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Removing a bee-hive is a relocation. I do not think the bees will die. They will make a hive at some other place. Though I cannot say that for the larvae/pupa.

Very good that you cannot say for the larvae/pupa. But again -- do you personally believe that when a bee dies, it has a soul and that soul goes into a better or worse form of life? I don't know much about Hindu belief, but now you're making me wonder if Hindus can claim to adhere to the Hindu religion and believe and teach or say anything they want about what happens to a bee-soul, or a donkey-soul, or a snake-soul, or a human-soul?

 

[Aupmanyav]

May I ask you a question? First, are you a Hindu? And second, are you saying that a Hindu can still be a Hindu and yet make up his own ideas about the soul, gods, descending upper or lower according to karma? OK, I asked you more than one question. Thank you.

Yes, I am an orthodox Hindu following a strict non-dual (Advaita) philosophy which is a valid part of Hinduism. Since I do not believe in any second entity to exist in the world, that leaves no space for God (i.e., God and humans or other living things). A Hindu is perfectly entitled to make up his own views, live with it, or communicate it to others. That is why so many philosophies in Hinduism ranging from polytheism to my atheist views. The only requirement is to live peacefully and allow others to hold their own different views and respect them. We have no place for sectoral conflicts in Hinduism. That is considered un-Hindu.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Very good that you cannot say for the larvae/pupa. But again -- do you personally believe that when a bee dies, it has a soul and that soul goes into a better or worse form of life? I don't know much about Hindu belief, but now you're making me wonder if Hindus can claim to adhere to the Hindu religion and believe and teach or say anything they want about what happens to a bee-soul, or a donkey-soul, or a snake-soul, or a human-soul?

A soul is a soul, whether that of a bee or a donkey or a snake or human (for those who believe so, I don't). Most Hindus will define it as a part of the Supreme Soul. What is supposed to happen is that the soul suffers for the evil deeds of the living being and is rewarded for the good deeds. The form that it will assume in the next life also depends on the deeds. (Hindus and Sikhs believe in 8,400,000 life forms - Lakh Chaurasi - 84 hundred thousand, which is close to current scientific guess of about 8.7 million).

Humans are considered to be the best form and those with evil deeds cannot hope to get a human form. Furthermore, it is possible to attain 'moksha', 'nirvana', 'deliverance', 'enlightenment', 'jnana', 'understanding', only in human form. Therefore, people are advised to make the best use of human form and engage in good deeds. Because otherwise they may not get human form again. It is considered a golden chance.

A famous hymn by Kabir Das (an orphan and a saint highly respected in all Indian religions though raised by a Muslim couple) says:
"Tune rāt gawāyi soye ke, diwas gawāyā khāy ke, hirā janam amol thā, kaudi badle jāy."

(You wasted nights in sleeping, and wasted days in eating; your life was as valuable as a diamond and you exchanged it for cowrie shells)

 

[Vinayaka]

As far as I understand Hindu beliefs, and perhaps this is not the thread to discuss them so excuse me if there is another thread to discuss this, I was under the impression that, according to Hindu belief, the soul can transmigrate upon death of the body from, let's say, human to animal, or vice versa. Or from one caste to another. Is that what you believe, and is that a Hindu teaching?

Hinduism is sort of 3 or 4 religions rolled into one. So belief about the way reincarnation functions is not consistent. I personally don't believe in or follow caste, and for reincarnation it's always human to human except in a couple of special circumstances.

This variance is evident when you ask several Hindus the same question. Some like to think their view is the view of all Hindus, while others, like me, will point out there are many views.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hinduism is sort of 3 or 4 religions rolled into one.

I would disagree with that, Vinayaka. Hinduism is one religion, but it is non-proprietary, like Linux. It has 'Dharma' (duties and righteous action) as its core. The rest depends on the person who would like to use it. So many distributions, and so many software are available. If I do not like Ubuntu, I can use Fedora or openSUSE or apt-rpm based. If I do not like LibreOffice, I can use FreeOffice or WPS Office or Abi Word. It is not Microsoft, Adobe or Apple. Hinduism is structured that way.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would disagree with that, Vinayaka. Hinduism is one religion, but it is non-proprietary, like Linux. It has 'Dharma' (duties and righteous action) as its core. The rest depends on the person who would like to use it. So many distributions, and so many software are available. If I do not like Ubuntu, I can use Fedora or openSUSE or apt-rpm based. If I do not like LibreOffice, I can use FreeOffice or WPS Office or Abi Word. It is not Microsoft, Adobe or Apple. Hinduism is structured that way.

Just an illustration to demonstrate diversity. But go ahead, disagree.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would disagree with that, Vinayaka. Hinduism is one religion, but it is non-proprietary, like Linux. It has 'Dharma' (duties and righteous action) as its core. The rest depends on the person who would like to use it. So many distributions, and so many software are available. If I do not like Ubuntu, I can use Fedora or openSUSE or apt-rpm based. If I do not like LibreOffice, I can use FreeOffice or WPS Office or Abi Word. It is not Microsoft, Adobe or Apple. Hinduism is structured that way.

Just an illustration to demonstrate diversity. But go ahead, disagree.

@Aupmanyav has basically described the Baha'i principal of progressive revelation having the core teachings as the unchangeable aspect which can be righteous actions and duty/service. In that light Hindu, is as all Faiths.

@Vinayaka has described what is to build a unity in diversity, the core truth of righteous actions and duty/service leading the way.

The only issue is that our mind has to become world embracing, we become to see we are one human race, we also see there is one source motivating our spiritual selves. The task then becomes to become one with the source in preference to our worldly self.

No need to respond Just wanted to share how it is possible to expand our views.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav has basically described the Baha'i principal of progressive revelation having the core teachings as the unchangeable aspect which can be righteous actions and duty/service. In that light Hindu, is as all Faiths.

When a religion is owned by some one, Jesus, Mohammad, Bahaullah, etc., then it becomes Microsoft, Adobe, Apple. When it is GPL, then it is Linux. Hinduism is GPL.

 

[YoursTrue]

Very good that you cannot say for the larvae/pupa. But again -- do you personally believe that when a bee dies, it has a soul and that soul goes into a better or worse form of life? I don't know much about Hindu belief, but now you're making me wonder if Hindus can claim to adhere to the Hindu religion and believe and teach or say anything they want about what happens to a bee-soul, or a donkey-soul, or a snake-soul, or a human-soul?

Yes, I am an orthodox Hindu following a strict non-dual (Advaita) philosophy which is a valid part of Hinduism. Since I do not believe in any second entity to exist in the world, that leaves no space for God (i.e., God and humans or other living things). A Hindu is perfectly entitled to make up his own views, live with it, or communicate it to others. That is why so many philosophies in Hinduism ranging from polytheism to my atheist views. The only requirement is to live peacefully and allow others to hold their own different views and respect them. We have no place for sectoral conflicts in Hinduism. That is considered un-Hindu.

I am sure there are many like you in religions who claim to be a member of that particular faith but do not believe or follow its teachings. I'm sure there are many examples, but I will desist for the moment.
As far as a "requirement" of living peacefully, would you say Hindus live peacefully with each other and others? And how is it a requirement? And, as a Hindu atheist, I don't suppose you believe in transmigration of the soul. But thank you for explaining your viewpoints. As far as sectoral conflicts, wouldn't you say that for many to believe in the transmigration of souls while others like yourself do not, that is conflicting sectoral ideas?

 

[YoursTrue]

Hinduism is sort of 3 or 4 religions rolled into one. So belief about the way reincarnation functions is not consistent. I personally don't believe in or follow caste, and for reincarnation it's always human to human except in a couple of special circumstances.

This variance is evident when you ask several Hindus the same question. Some like to think their view is the view of all Hindus, while others, like me, will point out there are many views.

So let me try to understand this. Some Hindus believe each organism (animal or human) has a soul that transmigrate due to karma to a better or lower state, is that true? While others don't believe that. And it's all possible, according to Hinduism.

 

[YoursTrue]

A soul is a soul, whether that of a bee or a donkey or a snake or human (for those who believe so, I don't). Most Hindus will define it as a part of the Supreme Soul. What is supposed to happen is that the soul suffers for the evil deeds of the living being and is rewarded for the good deeds. The form that it will assume in the next life also depends on the deeds. (Hindus and Sikhs believe in 8,400,000 life forms - Lakh Chaurasi - 84 hundred thousand, which is close to current scientific guess of about 8.7 million).

Humans are considered to be the best form and those with evil deeds cannot hope to get a human form. Furthermore, it is possible to attain 'moksha', 'nirvana', 'deliverance', 'enlightenment', 'jnana', 'understanding', only in human form. Therefore, people are advised to make the best use of human form and engage in good deeds. Because otherwise they may not get human form again. It is considered a golden chance.

A famous hymn by Kabir Das (an orphan and a saint highly respected in all Indian religions though raised by a Muslim couple) says:
"Tune rāt gawāyi soye ke, diwas gawāyā khāy ke, hirā janam amol thā, kaudi badle jāy."

(You wasted nights in sleeping, and wasted days in eating; your life was as valuable as a diamond and you exchanged it for cowrie shells)

OK, thank you, you have been helpful in explaining your views.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As far as sectoral conflicts, wouldn't you say that for many to believe in the transmigration of souls while others like yourself do not, that is conflicting sectoral ideas?

Yeah, we believe in different things. My family is thoroughly theist but I am an atheist. So what? We are still a family and love each other. I keep my views mostly to myself and participate in the family theistic rituals because I still respect the myths of our deities as guides to our behavior.

Is that not a little confusing? No. It is not at all confusing. Just as Christians are guided by stories about what Jesus did, and Muslims are guided by what Mohammad did in various situations, Hindus too are guided by what our deities did in various situations. Whether these stories are true or false does not matter.

So let me try to understand this. Some Hindus believe each organism (animal or human) has a soul that transmigrate due to karma to a better or lower state, is that true? While others don't believe that. And it's all possible, according to Hinduism.

Yeah, difference of views is perfectly permissible in Hinduism - to a great extent.

 

[Vinayaka]

So let me try to understand this. Some Hindus believe each organism (animal or human) has a soul that transmigrate due to karma to a better or lower state, is that true? While others don't believe that. And it's all possible, according to Hinduism.

Yes. We're vast. Still, 95% or more of Hindus believe in reincarnation of some kind. The details vary. Similar to how all Christians believe in the divinity of Christ, yet the details of it vary.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, we believe in different things. My family is thoroughly theist but I am an atheist. So what? We are still a family and love each other. I keep my views mostly to myself and participate in the family theistic rituals because I still respect the myths of our deities as guides to our behavior.

Is that not a little confusing? No. It is not at all confusing. Just as Christians are guided by stories about what Jesus did, and Muslims are guided by what Mohammad did in various situations, Hindus too are guided by what our deities did in various situations. Whether these stories are true or false does not matter.Yeah, difference of views is perfectly permissible in Hinduism - to a great extent.

Now first off, what do you mean by your last few words, that "difference of views is perfectly permissible in Hinduism - to a great extent"? Does that mean that a Hindu cannot believe, let's say, in Jesus as the only-begotten son of God? (Or the Bible)?
I realize that Christians and Muslims do not believe or teach the same things, but now I wonder about Hinduism. While you say that you don't believe in God, or any god I suppose, at all, that is perfectly permissable for a Hindu to believe that way. And it's ok with me, too, for you to believe that way. But please do explain what you mean by that last statement, if you will. "difference of views is perfectly permissible in Hinduism - to a great extent." Thanks.