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I would like some information on your belief system

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by Alien_Youth, Apr 3, 2005.

  1. Alien_Youth

    Alien_Youth Soldier in God's army

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    Hi,

    I am a christian (born again). Some Mormons showed up at my youth group once and it got rather heated between one of them and my youth leader, he made some good points using the bible and his own common sense but she defended her faith quite well, she has only come back once since then. Even though I wouldn't convert I would be interested to know more of what she believes in. I know about the whole thing with Joseph Smith and the Gold tablets but that seems to be only the surface, if anyone can help me learn more so that I can have a good debate with her and be able to actively see her point of view and know about her beliefs to defend my own it would be much appreciated. I am NOT trying to convert her I simply want to know more about her beliefs.

    God Bless,

    Alien Youth
     
  2. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    First, I recommend you check out www.mormon.org. That will give you an overview. If you want more, check out www.lds.org, which has a LOT more detailed info. You might also want to check out www.providentliving.org, which has the practical side of things, but that's a little dry for folks just trying to educate themselves.

    I must admit I'm hesistant to give you more than this, because one of our beliefs is that the spirit of contention is of the devil. While it's possible to debate in a friendly manner, that's not the impression that I'm getting from your description of this LDS girl and your youth leader. If she was going to your youth group to pick a fight, she's partly to blame for not feeling welcome enough to come back.
     
  3. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I'd recommend reading The Book of Mormon. It's a more unified work than the Bible and an easier read. Many printings have some really cool illustrations, as well.
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Alien!

    My name is Kathryn and I'm a Latter-day Saint (i.e. Mormon). Deep Shadow is right. We believe that Satan is the father of contention. Consequently, I would not want to get into any kind of an argument with you. But, I would be more than happy to explain to you what we believe and why. I've been a member of the Church all my life (and I'm OLD! ;) ), so I think I would probably be a good resource for information. I would like to make one suggestion to you, however -- and so far you seem to be on the right track. When looking for accurate information about the beliefs, history and culture of any denomination, your best bet is to go directly to a member of that denomination and not to their critics. Asking a non-Mormon to explain Mormonism makes about as much sense as asking a Jehovah's Witness to explain Catholicism or a Baptist to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

    So, if you have any specific questions, ask away.

    Kathryn

    P.S. Hi to my fellow Latter-day Saints on this forum!
     
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  5. Alien_Youth

    Alien_Youth Soldier in God's army

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    Thanks Katzpur, A lot of my questions have to do with the fact that if the as mormon's believe Joseph Smith was handed down what is written on the golden tablets from the angel Moroni then how come no one but him has ever seen the tablets? Also (not to say that Moroni was evil) but I did some reading in a book on demonology and Moroni is the angel of death in demonology. I find it a little odd that an angel of death would preach a message of salvation. Lastly one of my questions has to do with something that I read in an origninal version of the book of mormon, it says that black people are demons and that they should be killed. I'm not saying that this is the perfect translation of what was said by Moroni, but if it is then it just confuses me that a "holy book" could basically come out and endorse racism so blatantly. I just want some answers.

    God Bless,

    Alien Youth

    p.s. Darkshadow, she didn't come to pick a fight or at least I don't assume so but she was very combative even after my youth leader was able to shoot down her every point due to the fact that he is very well read in all religions including yours. I'm sorry to say that (not to be offensive) but she really doesn't seem to be able to compete against him but then again he has been studying the bible for 30+ years
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi again, Alien Youth.

    It's late where I am and I've gotta get my beauty sleep, so I'll just answer you briefly tonight. If you want to go into more depth later, I'd be happy to. Actually, eleven individuals besides Joseph Smith saw and held the golden plates. Even though many of them later had a falling out with Joseph, not one of them ever denied having had the experience -- right up to their deathbeds.

    Well, if you know anything at all about foreign languages, you know that a word can mean something in one language and something entirely different in another language. Sometimes the differences in what they mean is actually pretty comical. I can assure you that whatever Moroni may mean to demonologists, it certainly didn't mean that to the people living in 400 A.D. in the ancient Americas.

    There is nowhere in either the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon or in today's version that states that black people are demons and should be killed. That's the truth. I wouldn't lie about that. There was a period of time in our Church when black men were forbidden to hold the priesthood. This had nothing to do with color, per se, but with lineage. In other words, the ruling was very, very similar to one in Old Testament times that said only men of a certain tribe could hold the priesthood. In New Testament times, that law was rescinded. I don't know how much you know about Mormon history, but the early Mormons were driven from their homes pretty much everywhere they went. In Missouri, they were forced to leave to a large extent because Joseph Smith was so vehmently opposed to slavery. Today, there are blacks in many leadership positions in the Church and there is no reason whatsover why a black man could not someday become the President of the Church.

    God bless you too, :)
    Kathryn
     
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  7. Alien_Youth

    Alien_Youth Soldier in God's army

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    I must have misinterpreted the quote that I read, the way i looked at it it read to me as if blacks were demonic and being as I am of mixed race (my mother is white my father is malato) I thought that it was offensive but given that you have cleared that up then I see no problem. You make a good point about different things meanings in language. The Moroni in the book of demonolgy may be a different one then the one that preached the book of mormon. I just may have confused the 2. I'll have to tell my youuth leader that he was mistaken on the golden tablets issue and I was mistaken as well, I take back the earlier comments about that particular thing, although I would aprreciate knowing the names of the people just for reference.

    God Bless,

    Alien Youth
     
  8. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    I have a question, since you're answering. You mentioned that Joseph Smith and eleven others saw the golden plates - how do you believe this relates to the twelve apostles?
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    If your mother is white and your father malato, you must be good looking! I'm not just flattering you. I'm white and quite fair skinned. My husband is Hispanic. I was physically attracted to him because I've always liked dark skin, and I wanted darker skinned children than I'd have had with someone of my coloring. My kids are, as might be expected, darker than me, but lighter (darn!) than their dad.

    The individuals who saw the plates are:
    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris
    Christian Whitmer
    Jacob Whitmer
    Peter Whitmer, Jr.
    John Whitmer
    Hiram Page
    Joseph Smith, Sr. (the father of Joseph Smith, Jr., who translated the plates)
    Hyrum Smith
    Samuel Smith

    If I can answer any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask!

    Kathryn
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Good question. I've often wondered this myself, particular in light of the fact that the governing body of the Church, since its organization, has been a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. I am relatively certain that not all of the twelve men who saw and held the plates ultimately held the office of Apostle, although several of them did. I think that most Christians are aware that there are certain numbers which appear to have a special significance to the Lord. Not only were there twelve Apostles, but there were also twelve tribes of Israel. In the temples of the Church, the baptismal font rests on the backs of twelve scultped oxen -- representing the twelve tribes.

    DeepShadow may be able to shed some additional light on this subject. We'll see what he has to say.
     
  11. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    I'd think it was offensive, too, and I'm not even black! Glad to see this is getting cleared up; I regret to say I thought you were picking a fight, Alien Youth. Check out http://www.blacklds.org/ for more info on the myths and folklore regarding blacks and the LDS church. Also, there is an official outreach program for black Latter-Day-Saints, called Genesis, which can be found at http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/index.html.
     
  12. Humanist001

    Humanist001 New Member

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    What I get for expressing my opinion:

    (From Moderator)

    "The reason you have been warned is because You were warned b/c of a specific post. (Warning Type = Post Warning), for which you have been given 1 point(s).

    The post for which you are warned can be seen here.

    The admin/moderator who warned you, entered this comment:

    =======================================
    You were warned in private PM. Do not discuss a moderator action in public posts again"

    **This is where my thoughts would be if they weren't under constant surveillence**
     
  13. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    If anyone would like to start a debate on these topics, I'm willing to talk, but these threads are not the place for it. Try opening a debate thread.
     
  14. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    And every copy of the book of Mormon that I've ever seen contains The Testimony of the Three Witnesses and The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses signed by the aforementioned individuals.
     
  15. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    I don't think the witnesses to the plates had anything to do with the Apostles, it's in fulfillment of what's been written.

    2 NEPHI 27:12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered
    unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of
    the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three
    witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the
    book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book
    and the things therein.
    2 NEPHI 27:13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a
    few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the
    children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful
    should speak as if it were from the dead.
    2 NEPHI27:14 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the
    words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him
    good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word
    of God!
    Also:
    Ether chapter 5
    D&C 5:11-15

    Isaiah 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people
    be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things?
    let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let
    them hear, and say, It is truth.
    2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the
    mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    The calling of the twelve came later (June 1829) D&C 18 26-36.
     
  16. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I have a question.

    Is it true that it is a LDS belief that God was once a man under another God? That it is possible for a human to become a god?
     
  17. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    I may not be the best person to be answering this question but I'll try. The simple answer would be yes but I'll post some quotes from LDS Authorities to help explain it.

    First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret.... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity.... God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.... You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves.... No man can learn you more than what I have told you (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, pp.613-14) - Joseph Smith.

    "If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.345) - Orson Pratt.

    "He [God] is our Father--the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods ... God has once been a finite being ... " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.333) - Brigham Young.

    "The Gods who dwell in the Heaven ... have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state ... they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever" (The Seer, p.23) - Orson Pratt.

    "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (The Seer, p.132) - Orson Pratt.

    "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself ... We are created ... to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven" (Journal of Discourses, vol.3, p.93) - Brigham Young.

    Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God--an exalted being--through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey (The Gospel Through the Ages, Salt Lake City, 1958, p.104) - Milton R. Hunter.

    Apostle LeGrand Richards wrote a letter to Morris L. Reynolds on July 14, 1966, in which he stated: "There is a statement often repeated in the Church, and while it is not in one of the Standard Church Works, it is accepted as Church doctrine, and this is: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.' "

    If anyone would like to add anything to this or clarify anything in this post, please do.
     
  18. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Thank you, Rey.
     
  19. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    No problem
     
  20. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good to me.
     
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