I will harden Pharoahs heart (and punish all of egypt for it)

[gnostic]

Where did you get 215 years? The scriptures say 430.

Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night of solemn observance to the Lord for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the Lord, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations. Exodus 12:40-42

True, but that is only from the perspective from translations using the Hebrew Masoretic Text as the main source.

In the Greek Septuagint, this same verses stated that were in both Egypt and Canaan for 430 years.

So it would include the time spent by Abraham and Isaac in Canaafn.

Second, there are one to 2 generations between that of Levi and Moses. Look up, Moses’ genealogy in Exodus 6:16-20.

16 The following are the names of the sons of Levi according to their genealogies: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari, and the length of Levi’s life was one hundred thirty-seven years. 17 The sons of Gershon: Libni and Shimei, by their families. 18 The sons of Kohath: Amram, Izhar, Hebron, and Uzziel, and the length of Kohath’s life was one hundred thirty-three years. 19 The sons of Merari: Mahli and Mushi. These are the families of the Levites according to their genealogies. 20 Amram married Jochebed his father’s sister and she bore him Aaron and Moses, and the length of Amram’s life was one hundred thirty-seven years.

Moses’ parents were Amram and Jochebed.

Amram’s father was Kohath, and in Exodus 6:20, it state quite clearly that Jochebed was Kohath’s sister, so Amram’s married his aunt.

Therefore both Kohath and Jochebed were offspring of Levi.

But in Genesis when Jacob (at age 130) and his entire family migrated into Egypt, Kohath was mentioned, but not Jochebed. This would suggest that Jochebed was born in Egypt, while Levi lived there in Egypt.

Levi must have been 48 when he settled in Egypt, and died there at age 137 (Exodus 6:16). So between age 48 and 137, Jochebed was born. We don’t know when.

But if you think the time spent in Egypt was 430 years, then when Jochebed gave birth to Moses, she must be anywhere between 261and 350 years of age.

Do you not see the problem, here?

Can she give birth to Moses at age 261 minimum or maximum of 350?

 

[The Anointed]

I'm aware of it. I'm also aware it's considered to be fraud by most scholars (unless they are attempting to "justify" their belief, naturally...)

Can you name the scholars who you believe consider that the reign and expulsion of the Hyksos is no more than a fraudulent claim.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here in the Encyclopedia Britannica, that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

 

[gnostic]

If it is 215 years, the the maximum age when she gave birth to Moses would be 135.

The minimum, she would be 46, if Jochebed was born on the year of Levi’s death.

So the range for 215 years in Egypt is 46 to 135.

While for the full 430 years in Egypt, would mean she was anywhere from 261 to 350 years old when she gave bitrth to Moses.

So which scenario is more likely?

 

[The Anointed]

That's cute. Re-writing actual HISTORY in order to twist it to fit what you wish were actually true.

Joseph has been discredited time and time again--- moreover? He was alive CENTURIES too late to be of any use, here.

You lose on three counts.



That's your CLAIM. You cannot use your CLAIM to "prove" ... your CLAIM.

ooops!

You really are biblically and historically ignorant aren't you?

By whom has Joseph been discredited time and time again?

And what make you think that Joseph was alive, too late to be relevant to the Hyksos dynasty?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Can you name the scholars who you believe consider that the reign and expulsion of the Hyksos is no more than a fraudulent claim.

No.. .The FRAUD is claiming these were Hebrews... sheesh.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You really are biblically and historically ignorant aren't you?.

Nope. Unlike YOU? I read what the bible *actually* says, not what I wish it said...

I guess I lost my Magic Jesus Bible Decoder Ring....

By whom has Joseph been discredited time and time again?.

LOL! This is common knowledge. See your sentence #1... who's ignorant of history, again?

LMAO!

And what make you think that Joseph was alive, too late to be relevant to the Hyksos dynasty?

LOL! To be a historian of a given period? You kinda have to have lived it-- or had sources from people who lived it.

Joseph had NEITHER.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You really are biblically and historically ignorant aren't you?

Nice Ad Hom, by the way.

I just LOVE you bible thumpers: you always descend into the personal insults as quickly as you can...

LOL! Do you wonder why I'm NO LONGER one of you guys?

 

[gnostic]

Can you name the scholars who you believe consider that the reign and expulsion of the Hyksos is no more than a fraudulent claim.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here in the Encyclopedia Britannica, that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

Josephus was only a competent historian of his own time and 100 to 150 years before his time.

200 years or more, and his accounts are sketchy at best, unreliable.

Josephus based his claim that the Hyksos were Hebrews or Israelites, from the work of Manetho. But Manetho made no such connections between the Hyksos and the Hebrews.

So you need to ask yourself where Josephus got his link from?

Because Josephus didn’t do any work on the Hyksos. He didn’t spend any time in Egypt to do the research, and comb records of any kind regarding to Hyksos.

 

[The Anointed]

If it is 215 years, the the maximum age when she gave birth to Moses would be 135.

The minimum, she would be 46, if Jochebed was born on the year of Levi’s death.

So the range for 215 years in Egypt is 46 to 135.

While for the full 430 years in Egypt, would mean she was anywhere from 261 to 350 years old when she gave bitrth to Moses.

So which scenario is more likely?

From the last Testament of Levi to his children...…
11 1,2 Therefore when I took a wife I was twenty-eight years old, and her name was Melcha. And she conceived and bare a son, and I called his name Gersam, for we were sojourners in our land 3, 4 And I saw concerning him, that he would not be in the first rank, And Kohath was born in the 5 thirty-fifth year of my life, towards sunrise. And I saw in a vision that he was standing on high 6 in the midst of all the congregation, Therefore I called his name Kohath [which is, beginning of 7 majesty and instruction]. And she bare me a third son, in the fortieth year of my life; and since his mother bare him with difficulty, I called him Merari, that is, 'my bitterness,' because he also was 8 like to die. And Jochebed was born in Egypt, in my sixty-fourth year, for I was renowned then in the midst of my brethren.

12 1, 2 And Gersam took a wife, and she bare to him Lomni and Semei. And the sons of Kohath, 3, 4 Ambram, Issachar, Hebron, and Ozeel. And the sons of Merari, Mooli, and Mouses. And in the ninety-fourth year Ambram took Jochebed my daughter to him to wife, for they were born in one 5 day, he and my daughter. Eight years old was I when I went into the land of Canaan, and eighteen years when I slew Shechem, and at nineteen years I became priest, and at twenty-eight years I took 6 a wife, and at forty-eight I went into Egypt. And behold, my children, ye are a third generation. 7 In my hundred and eighteenth year Joseph died.

Levi was 48 when he went into Egypt, Jochebed the daughter of Levi, was born when Levi was 64 on the same day as Amram the grandson of Levi and they were married in the 94th year of Levi who died at the age of 137, which was 89 years after he had entered Egypt at the age of 48.

Jochebed and her nephew Amram, who were born when Levi was 64, would have been 73 when Levi died at the age of 137, having lived in Egypt for 89 years, Moses was 80, when they left Egypt, 80+89=169. 215-169=46, making it a period of 46 years between the death of Levi and the birth of Moses, which means that Jochebed, who was 73 when Levi died, would have to have been, 73+46=119, when she gave birth to Moses, which is 29 years older than Sarah when she gave birth to Isaac..

Amram who also lived to the age of 137, See Exodus 6: 20; would have died when Moses was18.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Amram who also lived to the age of 137, See Exodus 6: 20; would have died when Moses was18.

That? That right there? Is all the proof anyone might ask for, that the bible is false.

 

[The Anointed]

Nice Ad Hom, by the way.

I just LOVE you bible thumpers: you always descend into the personal insults as quickly as you can...

LOL! Do you wonder why I'm NO LONGER one of you guys?

Hey when have I ever called you anything, except to state the fact that you are biblically and historically ignorant. You are the one who is calling theists "Bible Thumpers" and many other insulting names I suppose if I was prepared to go back over your posts.

Why didn't you say that you were referring to Josephus the historian, who supports Kathleen Kenyon's findings that Jericho was destroyed around 40 years after the exodus of the Shepherd Kings who he 'Josephus' believes left Egypt in 1567 B.C. And were not referring to Joseph the son of Israel and first of the Hyksos rulers?

But I just love interacting with atheists who attack that,of which they have little or no comprehension at all, and who resort to childish insults, when confronted with a superior mind.

 

[InChrist]

To say God could not soften Pharoes heart if he was already a cruel person would be limiting the power of an all mighty being. As far as an example of someone in scripture who was very cruel and hard hearted that God changed, I think Saul who became Paul is one very good example. In the case of God hardening Pharoes heart instead of softening it? I don't understand that and have no problem admitting it.

I thought you may choose Saul/Paul as an example. Although, Saul was a cruel persecutor of early Christians, he did have a zeal for God, though misplaced. He was sincere in his position as a Pharisee to serve the living God. So when he was confronted by Jesus face to face and realized who He was he willingly submitted to God and was changed. On the other hand, Pharaoh thought he was a god. That's what the Pharoah's considered themselves to be and this Pharoah in particular even when confronted with the power of the true Creator God refused to acknowledge Him or submit to His authority, the opposite of Saul's response.

I don't think it limits the power of God's Almighty power at all for Him to allow individuals to respond and reveal their true character and motives. As a matter of fact I think it displays God power as He accomplishes His will even while allowing human freedom and in spite human evil or rebellion.

 

[InChrist]

I know some Bible scholars who know the whole Bible in great detail. They say that the Bible is inspired by God and that it's all correct from cover to cover.
They say that most people hate God because of the way He deals with sinners, like when He destroyed the whole world with a flood and only eight people were spared.

We can see that God has no problem with killing babies and children, He says in the Bible that everyone belongs to him and He can do whatever He wants with them. The Bible says that everyone has sinned and everyone deserves to go to hell, but God chose to save a lot of people and allow them eternal paradise after this life is over. All of those He didn't choose to save will spend eternity in hell.

Every single prophecy in the Bible is proving to be 100% correct, 80% of prophecies have already come to pass and the other 20% are happening now. God will destroy the world again soon, this time He will use fire to burn the whole world up and then He will create a new world and all those whom He didn't save will be cast into hell where they will remain forever.

I know a lot of people hate God, but all of those who God chose love Him with all of their heart mind, soul and strength. I am one of His elect Saints, so I have no problem with anything God does. He has every right to do whatever He wants with His puppets.

You must be referring to Calvinists.

 

[InChrist]

Can you explain exactly how God knows the future ?
And can you give the book and chapter and verses where this is written at ?

God is eternal and outside of time. He is not constrained by time, but sees and knows the beginning from the end, so He sees what are for us ...past, present , and future events all at once. That is why the scriptures contain accurate future prophecy.

Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. Psalm 129:4

Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand. Isaiah 46:9-10

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. Revelation 21:6

 

[Dragonslayer]

This is as far as I got with your Straw Man.

1) I don't hate god. I also don't hate Voldemort. Neither do I hate Dr Doom or any number of fictional evil characters.

2) I love how you manage to be a Mind Reader: and you somehow know what I know. Amazing! You ought to go on the road or something.

3) I judge this "god" of yours? By all the various folk who claim to speak FOR him-- many claim EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS too.

If there WAS a god who was 1/100th as GOOD as you pretend?

NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD BE PERMITTED. Since you ALSO claim the consequences are so.... grim.

No. You prove yet again, that there cannot possibly be any gods who CARE about humanity!

Simply because of your first JUDGMENTAL paragraph alone... !

As a true believer, I am a Saint of God so I do have the authority to proclaim the truth to everyone. I'm fully aware of your position, as there are only two types of people on the planet. You are either one of Gods elect or you are a reprobate, there is no third kind of person.

You would be surprised to learn that I know more about you than you know about yourself, you may be one of Gods elect and you may not know it yet. I lived like a reprobate for most of my life, until God called me to Himself and converted me to a Saint.

Nobody knows who God's elect are, some people are saved on their death bed so I'm not saying that you are damned but I can tell that you are currently not a believer so you are headed for eternal torment in hell unless God converts you before you die.

Most of those who profess to be Christians are actually reprobates posing as Christians so don't believe everyone who claims to be a Christian, most are hypocrites.

God is the One who decides who will be saved and who will be damned, He has not left that most important decision in the hands of totally depraved, sinful, fallen mankind. God chose to save a certain number of people before He created the world, and every single one of them will respond by believing in His Son Jesus Christ who saves them from the penalty of their sins.

The soul of a person cannot cease to exist, it will continue to exist eternally. Either in heaven or hell, there is not third option.

 

[Dragonslayer]

You must be referring to Calvinists.

I believe in predestination and election, but I don't identify as a Calvinist. He did interprit the Bible correctly but he wasn't the first, he became popular for exposing Romanism and they called people who believed the Bible as it is written "Calvinists". The Vatican accused them of having a false view because their only authority was Holy Scripture, the Pope said they are the "Sola Scriptura" people.

The Vatican taught that the Pope was the greatest authority, but Calvin said the Bible was the Word of God and that it was the greatest authority. Everyone who believed that the Bible is Gods Word in every generation is a "Calvinist".

Calvin opposed the false teaching of Joseph Arminius, who taught that salvation is by mans free choice. Calvin taught that salvation is of the Lord, just as Scripture says it is.

 

[Faithofchristian]

God is eternal and outside of time. He is not constrained by time, but sees and knows the beginning from the end, so He sees what are for us ...past, present , and future events all at once. That is why the scriptures contain accurate future prophecy.
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. Psalm 129:4

Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand. Isaiah 46:9-10

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. Revelation 21:6

My question is, As to where or who told you that God is outside of time, Well of course God would know the beginning seeing God was there at the beginning of all things And of course God would know the end seeing God will be there at the end of all things.
Of course God would Remember the former things of old, Seeing God was there at the beginning of the former things of old.

Well of course God would know how his Prophecy will come down, seeing God gave the Prophecy and God will work everything accordingly to see his Prophecy is fulfilled.
Seeing you have no idea what
Revelation 21:6 is speaking about,
( The beginning and the end) What this means is That God was there at the beginning of all things and God will be there at the end of all things.

But then you have no idea when the beginning was ?
Nor how the end of all things will come down?

God was there way before Adam and Eve were created. So when was the beginning?

You said ---> so He sees what are for us ...past, present , and future events all at once. That is why the scriptures contain accurate future prophecy.)

Well of course the scriptures would contain accurate future Prophecy, God gave the Prophecy and God will work everything accordingly to his plans to see that his Prophecy is fulfilled.

Let's for say, that you plained to go away tomorrow, well then naturally you would work things, so that you could go away tomorrow.

So with God, God gave Prophecy, so naturally God would work things accordingly to see that his Prophecy would be fulfilled.

For some unknown reason, You think God looks down into the future and then gives Prophecy.

That is not how Prophecy works.

Prophecy works by stating certain things and then have those things happen precisely the way they were given.
So when God gives a Prophecy concerning the future, God will direct everything accordingly all the way down to the future to see his Prophecy is fulfilled.

God doesn't look into the future, But God gives a Prophecy and then directs everything accordingly to see that his Prophecy is fulfilled.

Where do people get these things at or from, that God looks down into the future.

When there is no where written in the bible, that God looks into the future and then gives Prophecy.
God doesn't have to look into the future.
God can and does give Prophecy without having to look into the future.

God gives Prophecy and then works everything accordingly to his plans to see his Prophecy is fulfilled.
Where do people get that God looks into the future, God doesn't look into the future.

So what people are saying, that God cannot give Prophecy without first looking into the future.
Are people absolutely sure about this?

 

[Dragonslayer]

My question is, As to where or who told you that God is outside of time, Well of course God would know the beginning seeing God was there at the beginning of all things And of course God would know the end seeing God will be there at the end of all things.
Of course God would Remember the former things of old, Seeing God was there at the beginning of the former things.

Well of course God would know how his Prophecy will come down, seeing God gave the Prophecy and God will work everything accordingly to see his Prophecy is fulfilled.
Seeing you have no idea what
Revelation 21:6 is speaking about,
( The beginning and the end) What this means is That God was there at the beginning of all things and God will be there at the end of all things.

But then you have no idea when the beginning was ?
Nor how the end of all things will come down?

God was there way before Adam and Eve were created. So when was the beginning?

You said ---> so He sees what are for us ...past, present , and future events all at once. That is why the scriptures contain accurate future prophecy.
Well of course the scriptures would contain accurate future Prophecy, God gave the Prophecy and God will work everything accordingly to see that his Prophecy is fulfilled.

Let's for say, that you plained to go away tomorrow, well then naturally you would work things, so that you could go away tomorrow.

So with God, God gave Prophecy, so naturally God would work things accordingly to see that his Prophecy would be fulfilled.

For some unknown reason, You think God looks down into the future and then gives Prophecy.

That is not how Prophecy works.

Prophecy works by stating certain things and then have those things happen precisely the way they were given.
So when God gives a Prophecy concerning the future, God will direct everything accordingly all the way down to the future to see his Prophecy is fulfilled.

God doesn't look into the future, But God gives a Prophecy and then directs everything accordingly to see that his Prophecy is fulfilled.

When you say, "the beginning of all things and the end of all things". You are referring to the earth, planets, stars and mankind right?. All of these have a beginning and end, but the God Head has always existed in eternity past and will for all eternity.

The earth is only 6000 years old and it's due to be destroyed by fire soon, before that only heaven and Gods Angels existed.

 

[Faithofchristian]

When you say, "the beginning of all things and the end of all things". You are referring to the earth, planets, stars and mankind right?. All of these have a beginning and end, but the God Head has always existed in eternity past and will for all eternity.

The earth is only 6000 years old and it's due to be destroyed by fire soon, before that only heaven and Gods Angels existed.

Have you any idea what that fire is.
That fire will not destroy everything, only those things that have sin in it.

It seems people will jump to man's teachings, and will not give account of God's teachings.
There is no where in the bible written, that the Earth as being only 6000 years old.

Nope not at all, The beginning of all things, was way before the stars, sun, and mankind ever came into existence.

Let's see, if the Earth is only 6000 years old, As you say it is.
Then how is it, that the dinosaur bones date back to some Millions of years old.
Of course your not going to be able to handle the dinosaur bones out dating 6000 yrs.
All because the dinosaur bones does not fit into man's teachings of the Earth 6000 yrs old.

You do know that Christ Jesus condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9---"
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

So by the teachings of man's, has the Earth as 6000 yrs old .which Christ Jesus condemned the teachings of man's.
So who do you suppose will be right, the teachings of man's or Christ Jesus?

So the question is, how do you get a Million years to fit into 6000 years?

In the book of Genesis 1:1--"In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth"
Now notice it doesn't say when God created the heaven and Earth, only in the beginning. So when was the beginning?

So the Earth was already here way before mankind were created or anything else was created.
So how old is the Earth?
Evidently the Earth is alot older than any 6000 years. As man's teachings will say it is

But then people can not handle the fact of the dinosaur bones out dating man's teachings of the Earth being 6000 years old.
The Dinosaur bones are God's witnesses that the Earth is alot older than 6000 years that man's teachings will say.

But then people are not taught about the three Earth ages.
The first Earth age is where the dinosaur bones came from.

The second Earth age, is what we are now in.
The third Earth age, will come at the coming of Christ Jesus to setup his kingdom here on Earth.

 

[The Anointed]

When you say, "the beginning of all things and the end of all things". You are referring to the earth, planets, stars and mankind right?. All of these have a beginning and end, but the God Head has always existed in eternity past and will for all eternity.

The earth is only 6000 years old and it's due to be destroyed by fire soon, before that only heaven and Gods Angels existed.

Dragonslayer wrote...…. When you say, "the beginning of all things and the end of all things". You are referring to the earth, planets, stars and mankind right?. All of these have a beginning and end, but the God Head has always existed in eternity past and will for all eternity.

The Anointed...…. The earth, planets, stars and mankind are nothing more than energy.

The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed. If energy cannot be created, then it always was, and If it can never be destroyed, it always will be. Therefore, according to this law, energy must be eternal, having neither beginning or end. Energy can be and is converted to that which we perceive as matter. In fact, this material universe at the time of the Big Bang was pure energy, which has been converted to that which we perceive as matter only to be reconverted to its original form as electromagnetic energy during the phase of the Big Crunch.

It is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become. God; the eternal evolving collective consciousness of all that exists

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

This is taken from the following Link.
If you observed the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics*

Dragonslayer wrote...…. The earth is only 6000 years old and it's due to be destroyed by fire soon, before that only heaven and Gods Angels existed.

The Anointed...…. And I suppose you believe that the earth is flat, and that it is the centre around which the entire Cosmos orbits and that the eternal God who has neither beginning or end, created this boundless and eternal Cosmos in 6 literal 24 hours days?...….. Come on; give us a break Sunshine.