1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured I will harden Pharoahs heart (and punish all of egypt for it)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Sep 15, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,627
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    Exodus 7:3

    But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt

    Why is it that whenever I present that verse to Christians or any verse that doesn't scratch their itchy ears, they come up with a long explanation of why Scripture doesn't mean what it says.

    When a verse appeals to them, well, they take it for what it says. But when a verse sounds preposterous, like: God hardened pharaohs heart, then punished all Egypt for it and killed babies and children as a result of Pharaohs hardness of heart

    All these Bible Christians suddenly no longer accept the Bible and they create their own God, while criticizing me for rejecting the Bible.

    It says, I repeat, I WILL HARDEN PHARAOH'S HEART. He didn't say, "Pharaoh hardened his heart". I in that context is God speaking. He was referring to himself. Yet, Christians see how stupid some of Scripture is, so they come up with this huge unbiblical explanation for saying essentially "The Bible doesn't mean what it says".


    So, if the Bible doesn't mean what it says in certain parts, how do you know you can learn anything from a collection of books that don't mean what they say?

    You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. . Deuteronomy 28:30-31,35



    • When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20
    • When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
    Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25 NIV
    • Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
    (Sounds like sex-slavery to me!)
    • He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them.... He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. 2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT
    • You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
    (God justifies slavery but of course, it's his word)
    • Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
    • No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1 NRSV
    (As if they did it to themselves and are to blame)
    • Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookback, or a dwarf (midget), or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken ... He shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries. Leviticus 21:17-23 KJV"
    (What if they were born that way? Well, if God has a problem with how he made them he should make them without blemish)

    And it says kill people for working on the wrong day of the week. Do you realize how crazy that is? Capital punishment for working on Saturday. REALLY??



    Why should I believe a book full of such insanity was inspired by God? Is that the best God can do? The Bible was spoken orally for generations before getting written down. There was plenty of time for those stories to become distorted from what originally happened!
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,627
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    Deuteronomy 22
    g“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

    Marry and spend the rest of your life with the man who raped you and broke your hymen against your will.

    Of course, the Bible doesn't mean what it says. The verses in Scripture have nothing to do with what they say! :rolleyes:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +756
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Dude. You're Catholic. You don't have to pay any attention to the Bible. Why does it bother you so much. This post is pretty much directed at me. Can we just skip all that and let me ask you some simple questions. Don't answer them if you don't feel like it. I've argued enough with you.

    1. Who is God to you?
    2, Does he have a name?
    3. What is his personality?
    4. Why did he create us?
    5. What is our purpose?
    6. How do you know any of these answers?
    7. What do you want from him?
    8. What would you give in return?
     
  4. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,954
    Ratings:
    +1,402
    I think you need to re-read the passages about Pharaoh and try to understand the whole picture being presented and who Pharaoh was and what God was actually doing in the situation. Pharaoh was already hard and evil...

    "According to Adam Clarke's commentary, the Hebrew word translated harden "literally signifies to strengthen, confirm, make bold or courageous." An illustration commonly heard is that of a sponge squeezed (made hard) in the hand. Anything that comes forth from the squeezed sponge was already there. When God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart, He simply forced out what was already there, strengthening Pharaoh's own convictions."
    Question: Did God take away Pharaoh's free will when He "hardened Pharaoh's heart" (Exodus 10:1-2)? What verses point to free will in the Bible?

    "First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions."
    Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,715
    Ratings:
    +187
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    I am in agreement with what you say, except for the fact that Israel was only in Egypt for 215 years and not 430.
     
  6. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,954
    Ratings:
    +1,402
    Where did you get 215 years? The scriptures say 430.

    Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night of solemn observance to the Lord for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the Lord, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations. Exodus 12:40-42
     
  7. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,627
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    How do you know that God didn't harden pharaohs heart?

    Oh yes, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart" doesn't mean "I will harden Pharaoh's heart".....Got it!
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 3
  8. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,985
    Ratings:
    +2,692
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    I'm not Pope, but I want to give it a go:
    1. Which kind of God?
    2. True Power would have no name.
    3. His? Anyway, "barely interested" and downright lazy, if you ask the bible.
    4. School project.
    5. Increase the ratings of a galactic reality show.
    6. I speak to God and He answers back. Oh, and South Park. :p
    7. Help every now and again. A light in the darkness, which I can't get from the Bible God, because according to Christianity, God is allergic to all things icky, which means He's of no help when you're in that valley of the shadow of whatever.
    8.I will try to leave the world better than I left it if I can.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    3,199
    Ratings:
    +794
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    When you put clay by the fire it hardens. When you put wax by the fire it melts. The same fire effecting different materials in different ways. So it is with God and hearts. So, yes God hardened Pharaoh's heart; which was already ready to be hardened at the right provocation.

    Pharaoh was an enemy of Israel and his judgment finally came because God had enough already of his murderous evil ways. God does have patience with people but their day of judgment does at last have to come. Pharaoh's day of judgment came when God decided to harden his heart; so that he would continue to resist God. This was the judgment of God. Strong delusion. (2 Thessalonians 2:11)

    Pharaoh was inspired by a lying demon to think he could fight God and win. The thing was that the Pharaohs were always considered to be gods incarnate by the Egyptians. If I remember correctly a Pharaoh was considered to be the incarnation of Osiris. This "godhood" was achieved through some supposed magic ritual where a Pharaoh became Osiris. So, Pharaoh listening to Satan became convinced that he could prevail against the Hebrew God. However, after awhile it became such a joke that even his advisers and sorcerers basically knew he could not win. However he continued to listen to that lying spirit which played on his pride.
     
  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,985
    Ratings:
    +2,692
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    Pharaoh was just cleansing his nation of illegal immigrants, something Israel also liked doing and continues to like even now, including the "illegal" ones they themselves invited, only to find out they're black or something.

    Also, Egypt had more civil rights than Israel ever had. They were richer and better equipped. They were the USA of its time and place.

    But then Pharaoh is not the evil one, because he was just being puppeteered.

    All you need are chariots of iron, apparently.

    Canaanite Gods and Goddesses were worshiped in Egypt too.

    The lying spirit was God, per His own word.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +756
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    You know, I was thinking South Park when I was reading your answers for some reason. Must have been "galactic reality show." South Park is the most awesome show ever on T.V.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,627
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    God is love.

    God lives in hearts.

    The Bible has some truth and some falsehoods.

    God's personality is a mystery.

    God created us to be humble, charitable, honest, and love him and do what is best for others.

    My purpose is to ask God to guide my desires, inclinations, and moral compass, then follow what I discern is right. I personally pray to the Holy Spirit to guide me, but I think the spirit of God guides people of all faith and no faith. We are supposed to put God first. That is my opinion, and so I don't judge or condemn good people who don't put God first.

    I don't know these answers and neither do you. I know that there would be no problems in this world if everyone would chill out, get along, respect other views, not commit violence, not bully, antagonize, torture, or intimidate others.

    What I want from God is understanding, enlightenment, guidance, transformation to be more obedient to him, and the salvation, perfection, and purification of souls. I also want joy, peace, and happiness, but knowing the will of God is more important to me than feeling good.

    In return, I hope to serve and obey what he tells me. At this time it seems he is telling me to listen to my heart and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide me. He seems to be telling me not to trust some ancient book that attributes some of those preposterous things to him. If I'm wrong, I hope he corrects me, but I don't believe these Christians who keep saying "He sent me to correct you".

    Christians all think they are right and they don't even follow the Bible they cherish. They simply explain away the verses they don't like and cherish the ones they do. I actually don't do that because I don't know what is and is not true in the Bible. I'm assuming some of it is, but that book was written by men, and sometimes generations after it happened.
     
  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,715
    Ratings:
    +187
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    Yes! I know what the erroneous Roman OT says, and it is incorrect.

    The Roman bible states that Arpachshad was the father of Shelah, see Genesis 11: 12, and 1 Chronicles 18: 18.
    But Luke, in Luke 3: 35-36; states that Shelah is the Son of Cainam/Kainam who is the son of Arpachshad.

    This is verified in the Septuagint, in Genesis 11: 12, and 1 Chronicles 18: 18. Plus the book of Jubilees where in Chapter 8 it is written; "

    1 In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu’eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she 2 bare him a son in the third year in this week, and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for 3 himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and 4 stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was 5 afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year he begat a son, and 6 called his name Shelah; for he said: ’Truly I have been sent.’

    Although it is said in Exodus 12: 40; that the Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years, in Galatians 3: 17; Paul makes it quite clear that they were in the land of Egypt for only 215 years. See Gal 3: 17; which states, “God made a covenant/promise with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law that was given [through Moses] 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God’s promise. For if the INHERITANCE is by the law, it is no longer by promise, but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.”

    The first covenant made with Abraham was about the inheritance of the Land of Canaan. He promised Abraham if he would leave his family and travel to the land of Canaan he would give that land to him as an inheritance

    Plus, the Greek Septuagint and the Samaritan bible, have Abraham and his descendants surjourning in the land of CANAAN and Egypt for 430 years.

    Paul was a student of Gamaliel one of the greatest Jewish teachers of those days, and if we accept Paul’s statement, that there was a period of 430 years between the time that God promised to Abraham, all the land that was occupied by the descendants of Canaan, and the Law that was given my Moses, then we must conclude that the children of Israel were only in Egypt for 215 years.

    Abraham, who had entered Canaan at the age of 75, 25 years later when he was 100 sired Isaac, who was 60 when his son Jacob was born, and Jacob was 130 when he was reunited with his son Joseph in the land of Egypt. 25+60+130=215. So we see that there was a period of 215 years between God’s promise to Abraham and the entry of the family of Israel into Egypt, where they dwelt for 215 years before departing 430 years after the covenant/promise was first made with Abraham.
     
  14. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,627
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    Or perhaps you are saying a bunch of falsehood about who pharaoh was that isn't in the Bible.
    Perhaps the story of Pharaoh and the plagues was campfire and bedtime stories passed on orally for generations, twisted, distorted, and eventually written down.
     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    3,199
    Ratings:
    +794
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Yeah well that was judgment of God for Israel breaking the terms and conditions of the Covenant. Of course when an invasion happens then your wife gets captured and likely raped if she is attractive. God's just warning them of what will happen when the enemy invades them because they despised His Covenant and turned to other gods. God warns them because God cares.

    So what? You know they didn't have tampons so it was a bit ... uh messy.

    She could have done something else. Like maybe kick him in the balls. Anyway, if you have a single example of this actually happening in the Bible then name it.

    Yeah they knew better. Their parents were stupid and so were they. They should have respected the man of God.

    Welcome to the bronze age. That's what happened in those days when anyone invaded anyone else. Just read the Iliad. Remember that Jesus said at least one law was given not because God liked it but because the hardness of the people's hearts. In other words God had to work with the people of the time period. They weren't exactly ready for the "straight and narrow" if you know what I mean.

    So he burned some bones of those people who caused Israel to sin and made all that Assyrian invasion and Babylonian invasion happen? They were the cause of all Israel's problems. I say dig them up and burn their bones! At least Josiah cared.

    Like I said, welcome to the bronze age. Show me one culture that didn't have slaves. :rolleyes:

    Yeah, welcome to the Roman empire. Things were different then. Paul didn't want the Roman authorities coming down on the Christians even more than they already were doing. So if Paul were to say "Hey slaves, you're free" then there would have been even more problems. I'm glad you weren't an apostle in those days. :rolleyes: A lot of the early Christian converts were in fact slaves of the rich. Christianity was the religion of the poor and the slaves. The rich people mostly ignored it until they thought it was dangerous. Then they persecuted it. So it was important to tell Christian slaves to not cause problems with their masters.

    Show us one example of this actually ever happening in the Bible. The point here is that 99% of parents are rather merciful to their own kids and will go to great lengths to avoid this penalty. Especially ones that actually even cared about obeying the Torah!!! In those days if parents didn't care about obeying the Torah then they might just kill kids they didn't like without thinking twice. Welcome to the bronze age when life was cheap.

    The point is, this law is kind of genius because it makes kids obey their parents and their parents probably aren't ever going to actually resort to this measure anyway.

    So what? They can do something else. The point here is of ritual importance. The priests needed to be perfect in their bodies because it was ritually significant. God doesn't hate handicapped people.

    See above answer.

    Yeah no one had to disobey. Basically they knew the rules, they knew the boundaries beforehand. Besides people did disobey this and were forgiven without being killed. God also forgives those who repent. That's why modern Jews to this day don't kill each other for working on the Sabbath. :rolleyes:
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    3,199
    Ratings:
    +794
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Yeah that makes a lot of sense to bring up the modern secular Jewish government of Israel in regards to ancient Israel and the Hebrew slaves.

    Illegal immigrants? You forget that the Egyptians invited them over and then got scared when the Hebrews had more babies then they did.
    Whatever, he was evil for treating the Hebrews badly.

    In other words you don't even try to comprehend the subtlety of the text.

    And?

    Nonsense.
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    3,199
    Ratings:
    +794
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    What I said is based on the Bible and putting two and two together.
     
  18. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,627
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    So, "I will harden pharaohs heart" doesn't mean "I will harden pharaohs heart". Got it!

    I wonder how much of the rest of the Bible doesn't mean what it says
     
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    3,199
    Ratings:
    +794
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    You surely got it or something??? :confused:

    I admit God did it and am unashamed of it on the grounds Pharaoh was evil and an enemy of Israel. :D
     
  20. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,954
    Ratings:
    +1,402
    I'm saying it does not mean what you are implying.

    The first occurrence where it is said that God will harden Pharaoh's heart is a prophetic message given to Moses. Since God knows the future He already knew the state of Pharaoh's heart and his cruel disposition toward Israel and rebellious pride toward any other authority than his own. From the first plague to the fifth it is stated that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It wasn't until the sixth plague/judgement that the scriptures state in fulfillment of God's words to Moses that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The plagues were called and considered judgements (Ex. 7:4) upon Pharaoh and Egypt for their treatment of the children of Israel.

    Nevertheless, God gave Pharaoh repeated opportunities to repent and do what was right. God always gives ample opportunity for change, freedom, or escape from judgement. Pharaoh could have stopped the plagues at anytime, instead he hardened his own heart 10 times and refused to let the people go. That is who he was. This brought upon himself God's further hardening. This is the teachings of the scriptures throughout. If a person refuses to listen to God, refuses to change and continues in wrong-doing over and over again their own hard heart will be given further opportunities and further hardened by God for the purpose of openly revealing the true condition of the person's heart.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...