• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

I want to learn more about the Libertarian perspective. Looking for sources!

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I can explain my position simply and make sense. Can you?

A society is a cooperative endeavor. Such endeavors offer many advantages for the individual over the completely self-reliant lifestyle. However, they do require that the individual trade in some rights. For example, self-reliant Mountain Man, living in the wilderness, can poop anywhere he likes like the other animals, but if decides to go to town, he enters a cooperative endeavor in which he trades in his right to poop anywhere he likes for greater benefits.

So, in a cooperative society, when the inevitable conflicts between the rights of the individual and the welfare of the group happen, the group's welfare must prevail.

Your turn.

You don't get it. Based on my ideals I know what is the best possible solution for all of society and if you claims otherwise, you are wrong, because I say so even without making a reasoned argument. I don't have to make reasoned arguments, because I only have to say that you don't make reasoned arguments and that doesn't require reasoned arguments, because you are wrong and mean to me, because you demand that I make a reasoned argument. I don't like than and thus I win. Society is based on what I like and if you claim otherwise, you are so wrong, because society is based on what I like.

Now in all fairness I do the same in following sense. I base my view of society on what I like, but I like to include other humans POW and am willing to comprise and accept rights, duties and responsibilities as a member of society. So I am as subjective as everybody else, I just do my subjectivity differently than some other humans. They start with either solely the group or the individual. I try to balance that because as social animals we are individuals, who rely on others in part as the group.

Regards
Mikkel
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I can explain my position simply and make sense. Can you?
I thought so.
But apparently not, given that I have the same
discussions with the same people repeatedly.
A society is a cooperative endeavor. Such endeavors offer many advantages for the individual over the completely self-reliant lifestyle. However, they do require that the individual trade in some rights. For example, self-reliant Mountain Man, living in the wilderness, can poop anywhere he likes like the other animals, but if decides to go to town, he enters a cooperative endeavor in which he trades in his right to poop anywhere he likes for greater benefits.

So, in a cooperative society, when the inevitable conflicts between the rights of the individual and the welfare of the group happen, the group's welfare must prevail.

Your turn.
I too favor cooperation & some restrictions upon behavior.
The difference is that libertarians would minimize those restrictions
compared to others, eg, liberals & conservatives. If some activity
doesn't adversely affect others, we'd leave it up to the individuals.
So we oppose banning things like....
Blasphemy, sex work, religions, drug use, political speech, voluntary
economic relationships, self defense, pornography, gay marriage,
tiny homes, big flags, etc.

Some restrictions may apply where the rights of others would be
compromised, eg, child sex work because children lack the ability
to freely engage in such adult things, dumping toxic waste in rivers
because of the deleterious effects upon those downstream.

The old "mountain man" myth, eh. It seems that you've bought
into the stereotype that libertarians are so independent that we
divorce ourselves from society.
Perhaps that's cuz of the common belief that people must be
coerced to interact productively. We believe that voluntary
cooperation is best. For example, we oppose things like
compulsory military service....still a very popular thing with
both Dems & Pubs here, as evidenced by their keeping the
draft registration system intact...just in case the many want
the few to bear the full burden of war.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You don't get it. Based on my ideals I know what is the best possible solution for all of society and if you claims otherwise, you are wrong, because I say so even without making a reasoned argument. I don't have to make reasoned arguments, because I only have to say that you don't make reasoned arguments and that doesn't require reasoned arguments, because you are wrong and mean to me, because you demand that I make a reasoned argument. I don't like than and thus I win. Society is based on what I like and if you claim otherwise, you are so wrong, because society is based on what I like.

Now in all fairness I do the same in following sense. I base my view of society on what I like, but I like to include other humans POW and am willing to comprise and accept rights, duties and responsibilities as a member of society. So I am as subjective as everybody else, I just do my subjectivity differently than some other humans. They start with either solely the group or the individual. I try to balance that because as social animals we are individuals, who rely on others in part as the group.

Regards
Mikkel
That was very special.
See post #42.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I came across this video and I enjoyed watching it. It occurred to me that I don't know much about it:


Does anyone else have some good vids explaining this political wing? Tagging our in-house libertarian @Revoltingest.
OK.....I'm watching it.
I had to stop to praise the term "officials with fine hats".
So far, so good.

I wish I could draw that well & that quickly.
Good explanation of the basics.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My question is how does the Libertarian perspective deal with something like the pandemic? Should personal liberty still reign supreme even though it has a direct link to the welfare of others?
First, I'll note a distinction you might've inadvertently made in the thread's
title, ie, using the capital "L" in "Libertarian". This refers to the political
party, whose agenda is more specific & detailed than the broader
libertarian (small "l") philosophy.
To be a political party means to take the theoretical ideal, & apply
it pragmatically in the real world...in this case, the constitutional
republic of Ameristan, with its diverse society & states.
As a fellow resident in the real world, I suspect you might agree
with me that pragmatism offers the greatest rewards.
Pandemics.....
There is no pure libertarian solution. (Some critics love to create
a straw man out of "pure" this or that. This should quell their noise.)
So which solutions are the "most libertarian", ie, the least authoritarian?
As I see it.....
Legal requirements of social distancing & mask wearing are better
than economic & religious shut-downs. Sure, sure, this isn't perfect.
More people will likely become infected as a result, especially in the
short run. But it will also allow social, religious & economic interaction.
Those things are valuable too. And this approach requires less
coercion by government.
 
Last edited:

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...If some activity doesn't adversely affect others, we'd leave it up to the individuals. So we oppose banning things like blasphemy, sex work, religions, drug use, political speech, voluntary economic relationships, self defense, pornography, gay marriage, tiny homes.

If those opinions are the extent of what you're labeling Libertarian, we don't have a difference of opinion. I agree on all of them. However, you omitted a great deal.

In the USA, libertarians advocate less power for government and conservative economics. I don't think we should want to conserve an economic system that isn't working fairly for most citizens. As for government, if it's making the right policy decisions, it should have whatever power it needs to implement them. If the government is ineffective, it should be fixed or replaced not weakened.

In any society, the rights of the individual and the rights of the group will often conflict. Government has to resolve those conflicts.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Supporting gay marriage and cannabis legalization is liberal, no?
Liberals (N Ameristanian political usage of the term) have long
been opposed to both. Bill, Hillary, & Barack had to "evolve"
to embrace gay marriage after having opposed it.
But liberals are slowly becoming more libertarian in those 2 areas.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If those opinions are the extent of what you're labeling Libertarian, we don't have a difference of opinion. I agree on all of them. However, you omitted a great deal.
I can't cover everything in a single post.
That's what discussion is for.
In the USA, libertarians advocate less power for government and conservative economics. I don't think we should want to conserve an economic system that isn't working fairly for most citizens. As for government, if it's making the right policy decisions, it should have whatever power it needs to implement them. If the government is ineffective, it should be fixed or replaced not weakened.

In any society, the rights of the individual and the rights of the group will often conflict. Government has to resolve those conflicts.
But Libertarians, Democrats, & Republicans have
different values & approaches to that resolution.
The big difference: We favor minimizing coercion.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
But Libertarians, Democrats, & Republicans have
different values & approaches to that resolution.
The big difference: We favor minimizing coercion.
I'm guessing that in Libertarian-speak having to suffer consequences if you're uncooperative when the big bad government tries to implement a policy you don't like is coercion.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm guessing that in Libertarian-speak having to suffer consequences if you're uncooperative when the big bad government tries to implement a policy you don't like is coercion.
Aggressively trying to not understand, eh.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I wish I understood where all of this hatred for the libertarian perspective comes from.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I wish I understood where all of this hatred for the libertarian perspective comes from.
I speculate that with N Ameristanian liberals....

1) We tend to be about the individual rather than the group.
This is at odds with identity politics.

2) We all about economic liberty, & are a threat to those
into heavy regulation.

3) We're the true "liberal", in the sense that we're more
permissive about things like gay marriage, drugs, sex work,
speech, economics, bodily autonomy. Too much liberty
can frighten those who favor security, uniformity, & control.
4) They've erected many straw men, eg, we're anti-government,
we aren't part of society (just separate individuals), we oppose
all regulation, even when it advances the rights of individuals.

5) They associate us with the much hated Ayn Rand.
(I wouldn't want to meet her in a dark alley either.)

6) They tend to focus upon extreme libertarian ideas,
ignorian practical application.

7) They're more into criticism than understanding.
 
Top