I Want to be Forgiven!

[Katzpur]

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

 

[lunamoth]

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

Forgiveness is tough, very hard. But I also think we often confuse forgiveness with trust. If someone is still hurting you, or has not stopped the actions that could hurt you, it's not like you should keep saying 'it's OK, I forgive you.' Trust needs to be earned. You can forgive someone, but that does not mean you have to invite them over for dinner.

The way I see it, forgiveness is important because we need to set those burdens down. I don't think the saying above is like a quid pro quo from God. It's not like whatever grudges we carry to our grave then count as equal pain in hell, for example. We are supposed to forgive the way God does...freely and without condition. We try, we often fail, grace covers the difference.

What the passage is telling us is a truth...if we can't forgive it hurts us in the here and now. It is a burden on our heart, it affects our relationship with the person we fail to forgive and possibly others around us. We also need to learn how to forgive ourselves...the more we practice with others the more we are able to forgive ourself as well.

As far as any pain at death about any failures we had at forgiving...here's what I think it means. Before the next life we will see the outcomes of all of our actions and we will also understand the actions of others. I think it will be like pain, 'spiritual' pain, to see how things we've done hurt others, and we will also understand why others hurt us. We are all connected and the pain we suffer from the actions of others is connected to the pain we inflict...all part of living in a fallen world, so we can't really at the end of the day 'blame' anyone.

But, practically speaking, it is hard. We hand it to God, we take it back, we hand it over again, we take it back again. I think if we keep trying we can leave it in God's hands longer and longer, and then completely.

 

[Aqualung]

Forgiveness is tough, very hard. But I also think we often confuse forgiveness with trust. If someone is still hurting you, or has not stopped the actions that could hurt you, it's not like you should keep saying 'it's OK, I forgive you.' Trust needs to be earned. You can forgive someone, but that does not mean you have to invite them over for dinner.

Then what does it possibly mean? People often say it's NOT about that, but then, what IS it about? How can you forgive somebody if you still hold their sin against them (eg, by not allowing them into your confidence as you did before they sinned)?

 

[lunamoth]

Then what does it possibly mean? People often say it's NOT about that, but then, what IS it about? How can you forgive somebody if you still hold their sin against them (eg, by not allowing them into your confidence as you did before they sinned)?

Because forgiveness and trust are not the same thing.

You can forgive someone but that does not mean you need to be near them, especially if they show no signs of changing the behavior that causes pain.

You are not holding their 'sin' against them if you don't trust them to not hurt you...you are just protecting yourself.

For example, the pedophile who wanted to be part of the UUC congregation (or was it UU?). Anyway, I can understand them forgiving him for the hurt he caused their community, but that does not mean they need to let him be around children in their congregation.

Another example. Suppose my husband abused me. I could forgive him (well, I could try to), but that would not mean I should stay in the house with him where he can abuse me.

Forgiveness is healing to the person doing the forgiving. As long as you don't forgive, you still have a wound, or a sensitive scar. I'm not saying it's easy...heck...I don't know that I could forgive someone who hurt my children...I really don't. But if I could it would benefit myself.

 

[Aqualung]

Because forgiveness and trust are not the same thing.

You can forgive someone but that does not mean you need to be near them, especially if they show no signs of changing the behavior that causes pain.

Ok, but again, this is what forgiveness is not. What is it? If you forgive somebody, you might not trust them, but then what DO you do that is different from when you hadn't forgiven them?

For example, the pedophile who wanted to be part of the UUC congregation (or was it UU?). Anyway, I can understand them forgiving him for the hurt he caused their community, but that does not mean they need to let him be around children in their congregation.

Another example. Suppose my husband abused me. I could forgive him (well, I could try to), but that would not mean I should stay in the house with him where he can abuse me.

Again, these are all great examples of what forgiveness isn't, but I'm interested in knowing what it is.

Forgiveness is healing to the person doing the forgiving. As long as you don't forgive, you still have a wound, or a sensitive scar. I'm not saying it's easy...heck...I don't know that I could forgive someone who hurt my children...I really don't. But if I could it would benefit myself.

How does this forgiveness manifest itself? Do you just stop feeling bad? Is it entirely internal and/or personal?

 

[Katzpur]

You can forgive someone but that does not mean you need to be near them, especially if they show no signs of changing the behavior that causes pain.

You are not holding their 'sin' against them if you don't trust them to not hurt you...you are just protecting yourself.

I see what you mean, but it's so hard for me to separate forgiveness and trust. God says that when He forgives us of our sins, He'll also forget them. (At least that's what the LDS teach. Is that your belief, too?) So shouldn't our goal be to put the hurt behind us entirely? Obviously, there are some things we can't forget, and as you implied, if we continue to trust people who continue to hurt us, we're really just opening ourselves up to more hurt. There are a few people in my life who have really hurt me. Knowing they'd do the same thing again in a minute if they had the chance makes it really hard for me to forgive them. Maybe understanding why they would do some of the things they do would be a good first step.

 

[michel]

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

It is quite funny that you should mention that; I am exactly at the other end of the scale - when I say the Lord's prayer, I can never think of anyone who has wronged me......although I can think of loads who I have wronged.

I guess I am in the habit of always making excuse for other's behaviour (if it isn't "good"), by thinking that they are under stress.....whatever.

I very rarely need to forgive others. Guess I am lucky.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Forgiveness is a strange animal....
It has nothing to do with continuing a relationship that has passed it's sell by date.
Nor has it to do with...OK I have punished you now I forgive you...
It can be, I forgive you and I am moving on.
Or it could be I forgive you Come and have a HUG.
Forgiveness is always the end of something or situation, and the beginning of some thing else.
It is a turning point and a wiping clean.
It should tie up loose ends, with nothing to carry forward.
When God says I forgive you ... it is done an dusted...forgotten.
This is the way we have to do it.
If the need for forgiveness has not ended, Forgiveness can not be given.

When we ask forgiveness of God we must first repent.
Forgiveness and repentance go together.

so I suspect must the forgiveness we give, be in answer to repentance; to have true worth for those we forgive.

 

[Super Universe]

The only thing you take with you are the lessons you've learned so when someone chooses to be selfish and refuses to adopt limits and moral character it's tough to forgive them.

In the next dimension, in order to ascend even higher, you must forgive everyone who has ever wronged you and you must receive forgiveness from everyone you have wronged. You cannot ascend otherwise.

Once you ascend to the next level you'll realize how unimportant all this really is. Forgiveness will flow out of you like a bottle uncorked.

 

[michel]

The only thing you take with you are the lessons you've learned so when someone chooses to be selfish and refuses to adopt limits and moral character it's tough to forgive them.

In the next dimension, in order to ascend even higher, you must forgive everyone who has ever wronged you and you must receive forgiveness from everyone you have wronged. You cannot ascend otherwise.

Once you ascend to the next level you'll realize how unimportant all this really is. Forgiveness will flow out of you like a bottle uncorked.

you must receive forgiveness from everyone you have wronged.

That is something that hurts....because I know that I cannot ask for forgiveness from someone who is dead..........most of the people against whom I have sinned quite badly were in my youth. Somehow, I never had the courage to face them, and ask for forgiveness.

That hurts, now.

 

[w00t]

Unless someone wants to be forgiven for their actions I don't think you can forgive them.

 

[Aqualung]

For those who say that forgiveness does not mean returning to trust somebody, how do you explain the answer Jesus gave when asked how many times one should forgive your brother. He said "Seventy times seven" times. To me, this implies that one is putting themselves in the position to be harmed in the same way as they were before. Jesus didn't say, "You should forgive them, but hopefully you'll only have to forgive them a couple of times because after a certain number of times you should just avoid them at all costs". These two things, in my mind, seem incompatible.

 

[Fluffy]

The views of an ex-Christian who carries on the tradition of universal forgiveness:
I am a very strong advocate of universal forgiveness and have a wide variety of reasons for my conviction in it. I'm not sure if all of them square with Christian theology but I know at least some Christians who each believe some of these reasons. I know this is the Christian forum but on the off chance that these beliefs might be useful, I'm going to post them anyway. I fully understand if this is breaking the rules and my post needs to be deleted.

I think this passage if read literally, clearly shows at least 1 instance when it is okay (at least for God) not to forgive: when a person does not forgive others. This I believe is crucial since it indicates that their are in fact criteria in which it is okay not to forgive people but that we do not have the authority to make such judgements since they are to be left to God alone. Non-forgiveness is therefore left to God whilst we do not have the right to decide whether a person is deserving of forgiveness.

Depending on your view of heaven and hell, how forgiving you see God will vary but my understanding of LDS theology is that God is viewed as very, if not universally, forgiving which is a view that I share. This indicates that non-forgiveness is not merely out of the domain of human action but also ungodly as well making it not just a question of needing poor judgement but also an ungodly nature.

I often say that the right to judge and the right to not forgive are reserved for God alone and since I don't believe in God, I feel this states pretty clearly that these are not activities that should be happening. In light of belief in a loving, forgiving God, I feel a similar conclusion can be reached.

I think that the inability to forgive is an imperfection that humanity as a whole suffers from. It is clear that one's ability to forgive is correlated with the degree to which one has been wronged. We then make up our criteria in order to provide some sort of objective judgement to our decision not to forgive. We only say that we cannot forgive the unrepentent, for example, when an unrepentent person has wronged us to a certain degree. If a person wrongs us even further then we may fail to forgive even a repentent person and so the inherent bias in our criteria is revealed.

I also feel that an unforgiving attitude does not make other people try to be better. In fact more often than not it merely alienates them from a more productive path causing them to wrong us further. Therefore, if we truly wish a person to be repentent then we should first forgive that person so that they might be repentent. In this sense forgiveness is an affirmation that the wrong doer has the ability to change and empowers them to take this path.

Forgiveness is also good for you. You can still advocate good and campaign against evil whilst forgiving evil of its faults. Forgiveness is about preventing evil from having a hold on us and saying we are strong enough to deal with it in a good way rather than stooping to evil to combat evil.

I am quite a "theoretical" person so I find reasons like I give above enable me to then act according to those reasons. Sure my emotional hurt at being wronged or my sense of justice in the face of unrepentence can make it harder to forgive but reminding myself why I think the way I do helps me to overcome these emotions.

Another thing I do to try and overcome my inability to forgive is to put myself in the shoes of the person who has done wrong. I don't believe that humans are inherently evil, however, and so whilst I might not find a person's actions justifiable or even understandable, I can always point to a cause other than an evil nature and this goes some way to helping me to forgive them.

 

[Darkness]

How exactly have you sinned against God Katzpur?

 

[joeboonda]

Clara Barton never harbored resentments. One time a freind recalled to her a cruel thing that had happened to her some years previously, but Clara seemed not to remember it.
"Don't you remember the wrong that was done to you?" asked the friend.
"No," answered Clara. "I distinctly remember forgetting that."

In Romans 12, God tell us,

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

One thing that helps me to forgive others is the underlined verse. First, let me say, I pray for the one who offended me that they will trust Christ and be saved and forgiven, thus they should realize and apologize for their offense toward me. But, to those who don't, we know God is just and will judge each person accordingly, and unfortunately for the impenitent wicked, this will be God's vengeance. So, there is no burden to "get them back", because that is for the Lord to decide.

I take comfort in knowing that I am a sinner as we all are sinners, that it is our nature to sin, (being a sinner saved by grace that is now my old nature, but still there), and so I am not wholly taken by surprise when one does sin against me, its to be expected.

One other thing. Remember the man who owed much but begged for mercy so the master forgave the entire debt, but who later beat his servant and had him jailed for owing him a very small amount? This is how I feel. Jesus forgave me ALL my sins I have ever or will ever commit, once for all time. How can I not forgive a person ONE sin against me? When I see the great and terrible multitude and severity of my sins, and know I am forgiven, saved to the uttermost, I simply have to forgive others, I would feel like a heel if I didn't.

 

[joeboonda]

How exactly have you sinned against God Katzpur?

The Bible says we ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory--the holiness of God. That there is none righteous, no not one.

 

[lilithu]

Namaste Katz. :namaste

Funny that you should post this so close to (the day after) Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement. Every year on the Sunday closest to Yom Kippur our associate minister preaches about Atonement/Forgiveness, as she did today.

In Judaism, Yom Kippur is the most holy of days. It's the day (or the culmination of ten days) on which make things right between you and those with whom you've run afoul during the past year. This means asking forgiveness of those you have wronged and forgiving those who have wronged you, whether they ask for it or not. The point is to not start the new year with past grievances.

I do not know any secrets to making it easier, but I can pass on what my minister said today. She said, imagine seeing yourself through God's eyes. Not only do you have to be in right relationship with others and yourself; you also have to be in right relationship with God. If God can see every little grievance that you harbor, is that what you want God to see?

When put that way, it's not just a matter earning forgiveness for my own sins; I would be embarrassed for God to see my grievances. They automatically seemed petty and unimportant and therefore easy to let go.

Of course I am referring to small things, like someone saying an unkind word or being inconsiderate. Obviously, if someone is beating you or emotionally abusing you, then you cannot stay in relationship with them, regardless of forgiveness.

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

 

[Katzpur]

I fully understand if this is breaking the rules and my post needs to be deleted.

Well, technically, it is breaking the rules. However, I forgive you!

I think this passage if read literally, clearly shows at least 1 instance when it is okay (at least for God) not to forgive: when a person does not forgive others.

I see this as God saying that He will not forgive us if we don't forgive others. I don't believe the same permission to harbor a grudge is extended to us.

This I believe is crucial since it indicates that their are in fact criteria in which it is okay not to forgive people but that we do not have the authority to make such judgements since they are to be left to God alone. Non-forgiveness is therefore left to God whilst we do not have the right to decide whether a person is deserving of forgiveness.

Yup, that's how I see it too. In fact, LDS doctrine actually teaches, "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." (D&C 64:9–10) We don't believe that we have the option to forgive only those who are also forgiving of others, but that we are obligated to forgive everyone.

Depending on your view of heaven and hell, how forgiving you see God will vary but my understanding of LDS theology is that God is viewed as very, if not universally, forgiving which is a view that I share.

That is correct. We believe there is only one sin that cannot and will not be forgiven, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, a concept probably too involved to explore in this discussion.

Another thing I do to try and overcome my inability to forgive is to put myself in the shoes of the person who has done wrong. I don't believe that humans are inherently evil, however, and so whilst I might not find a person's actions justifiable or even understandable, I can always point to a cause other than an evil nature and this goes some way to helping me to forgive them.

As difficult as it may be, I believe that's worth a try.

 

[Katzpur]

How exactly have you sinned against God Katzpur?

In a myriad of ways, Darkness, none of which I intend to divulge on the internet. I am so far from being what He wants me to be that it's not even funny.

 

[w00t]

I think maybe God should ask forgiveness from us before expecting us to forgive. If you think he is responsible for the world and everything that is in it, then he must have created illness and suffering, NICE ONE GOD!