I want to b elieve

[Milton Platt]

Then why are you focused on religious tyranny as opposed to all the other ways in which we humans try to control and exploit each other? Economic tyranny is far more common and damaging than religious tyranny is, for example. Why aren't you focused on that? And why are you focused on religion at all if you don't believe in any form or expression of divinity?

Maybe because that is what this thread is about?

It does not matter if religion can be less damaging than some other form or tyranny. It can be tyrannical or not. It can either be damaging or it can't.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Bahais say there cannot be more than one God. Our imagination? Is that what Bahaullah said? Then why he claimed to be a messenger or whatever? I believe the monotheists have falsified the truth that there is only one God, while in truth, there are many. All old cultures believed in more than one God. Even before Moses' time, the Israelites believed in more than one God. Then came this jealous and unjust God who said, ".. for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them ..". Is this your God? If there has no update then who is Bahaullah? Why did he claim progressive revelation? All what you say is jumbled up. Bahaullah says something different, you say something different.

Monotheists cannot falsify anything. There is either One God or there are many Gods. All scripture since Abraham confirms that there is only one God. That is the evidence.

I cannot explain why people believed in many Gods before Judaism. I do not think that there was ever any scripture that said there are many Gods, so people must have misinterpreted what scripture they had. It is very important to note that we never had any scripture written by a Messenger of God until the Bab and Baha’u’llah came. What we have are scripture written about Abraham and Moses and the other prophets, and stories about God, and in the case of the New Testament we have stories written about Jesus. We have nothing authentic. The Qur’an is more authentic than any other scripture that preceded it but not as authentic as the Writings of Baha’u’llah, written in His Own Pen. For that reason and because Baha’u’llah is the latest Messenger of God that has come to earth, it makes sense to believe what he wrote.

Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about “the one True God.” I have a longer document of passages but I pared it down to a few of the most salient ones. The passages are self-explanatory.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 174
​

Here is an excerpt from Why is God a jealous God?. It explains what it means to say that God is jealous.

In Exodus 20:5, it is not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants or needs. Exodus 20:4-5 says, “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...” Notice that God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.

In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than God. It is a sin when we desire, or we are envious, or we are jealous of someone because he has something that we do not have. It is a different use of the word “jealous” when God says He is jealous. What He is jealous of belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.​

That excerpt concurs with what Baha’u’llah wrote, that God wants only our hearts, which means our worship and our service, because they rightly belong to Him.

“Give a hearing ear, O people, to that which I, in truth, say unto you. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 206

“O friends! Help ye the one true God, exalted be His glory, by your goodly deeds, by such conduct and character as shall be acceptable in His sight. He that seeketh to be a helper of God in this Day, let him close his eyes to whatever he may possess, and open them to the things of God. Let him cease to occupy himself with that which profiteth him, and concern himself with that which shall exalt the all-compelling name of the Almighty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272​

God wants us to love Him because that is in our best interest, not because God needs our love, since God is fully self-sufficient and needs nothing from anyone. God wants us to love Him because God’s love cannot reach us unless we love Him, since God never forces His love upon anyone.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

 

[Aupmanyav]

Monotheists cannot falsify anything. There is either One God or there are many Gods. All scripture since Abraham confirms that there is only one God. That is the evidence.

Abrahamic religions are not the only religions of the world. Hinduism does not agree to that. You claim to promote unity, but you are denying it here.
(Actually they are not Abrahamic, they are Zoroastrian, because he along with Akhenaten were the first to come up with monotheism, as testified by history. Moses and Abraham are just stories)

 

[Trailblazer]

Abrahamic religions are not the only religions of the world. Hinduism does not agree to that. You claim to promote unity, but you are denying it here.
(Actually they are not Abrahamic, they are Zoroastrian, because he along with Akhenaten were the first to come up with monotheism, as testified by history. Moses and Abraham are just stories)

Yes, I now recall that Zoroaster was the first to champion monotheism, my coworker told me that.
Baha'is cannot agree that there is more than one God just to promote unity because that would be dishonest, since it goes against our primary belief in One True God. The origins of Hinduism cannot be traced as it is an extremely old religion, so we cannot know what the religion originally taught about God or Gods.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'is cannot agree that there is more than one God just to promote unity because that would be dishonest, since it goes against our primary belief in One True God. The origins of Hinduism cannot be traced as it is an extremely old religion, so we cannot know what the religion originally taught about God or Gods.

SO, UNITY IS NOT YOUR PRIMARY GOAL. You will sacrifice unity at the altar of One God. All this Bahai blah-blah about unity is a sham. Bahai aim is acceptance of only One God and that Bahaullah was his last manifestation. You go after a person, you are the cult of Bahaullah.

Hinduism is old, oldest of the major religions. Whatever else is advocated or claimed (which we do not fight over, One God or many Gods and Goddesses, or even No God if anyone so thinks - as in my case), humane action has been its one constant - 'Dharma' (fulfillment of one's duties and engaging in righteous action). Hinduism is a free form religion. It moves with time. It is not dogmatic. What one person said or what one book said cannot bind it. It puts no fetters on us except for 'Dharma' (Humane action). It does not castigate LGBTQ as the One God religions do. It can change when it needs to. It agrees completely with science. I think that is what a religion should be.

 

[Trailblazer]

SO, UNITY IS NOT YOUR PRIMARY GOAL. You will sacrifice unity at the altar of One God. All this Bahai blah-blah about unity is a sham. Bahai aim is acceptance of only One God and that Bahaullah was his last manifestation. You go after a person, you are the cult of Bahaullah.

The oneness of mankind and world unity is the primary goal of the Baha’i Faith.

Oneness of mankind means that we are all part of one whole, that we all proceed from the same Source, One God, and that we are all part of that whole.

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288​

Unity does not imply uniformity. Unity does not mean we AGREE about everything or that all people are all equal in the sight of God, be they good or evil, pious or infidel.

Unity means that we get along with one another in spite of our differences.

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts. Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53​

Those are excerpts from the chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

The Baha’i Faith is not a cult, it is a world religion. The difference between a cult and a religion is that cults have leaders and people worship those leaders. A religion is founded by a Messenger of God and people worship God, not the Messenger. Baha’is do not worship Baha’u’llah, we worship God only. Baha’u’llah did not want to be worshiped, He enjoined us to worship only God.

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 127

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him. Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 256-257​

Hinduism is old, oldest of the major religions. Whatever else is advocated or claimed (which we do not fight over, One God or many Gods and Goddesses, or even No God if anyone so thinks - as in my case), humane action has been its one constant - 'Dharma' (fulfillment of one's duties and engaging in righteous action). Hinduism is a free form religion. It moves with time. It is not dogmatic. What one person said or what one book said cannot bind it. It puts no fetters on us except for 'Dharma' (Humane action). It does not castigate LGBTQ as the One God religions do. It can change when it needs to. It agrees completely with science. I think that is what a religion should be.

Since religion comes from God to man, religion should be whatever God wants it to be. Religion is based upon God’s Will for mankind, not upon what man wants or what is convenient. That said, it sounds like the ideals of Hinduism as you describe them, righteous action, are laudable. However, as you noted Hinduism is not bound by any one person such as a Messenger/Prophet, so in that regard it differs from the Baha’i Faith and the other Abrahamic religions. But so what? Why can’t we learn to get along in spite of our differences? We do not have to give up what we believe in order to get along with others who believe differently, not unless we insist that others believe what we do. My best friends are all atheists, not believers. I respect their right not to believe in God and they are righteous people.

The Baha’i Faith also agrees with science and we do not castigate anyone. We have certain Laws that apply only to Baha’is does not mean we expect anyone else to follow them, and we do not judge anyone, even other Baha’is that stray from the Law. That is their own private business, and it is between them and God. Baha’u’llah said that religion is the “chief instrument” for order in society, and the teachings and Laws are part of religion.

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. It is incumbent upon the kings and the spiritual leaders of the world to lay fast hold on religion, inasmuch as through it the fear of God is instilled in all else but Him.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf​

The Baha’i Faith is also a religion that moves with the times. It just so happens that we are living in a new age and things have changed markedly from the days of the former religions, but things will change again in the future. Baha’u’llah clearly said that there will be more Prophets in the future and more religions will be revealed, for as long as man exists the process of revelation will continue, because the Tide of God’s Mercy can never end.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Unity does not imply uniformity. Unity does not mean we AGREE about everything or that all people are all equal in the sight of God, be they good or evil, pious or infidel.

Bold mine. Got it, got the Bahai concept of unity. I need not read the rest of your post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bold mine. Got it, got the Bahai concept of unity. I need not read the rest of your post.

Sure, one word means that Baha'is have a problem with unity...
Yet you cause disunity over one word.

Obviously, it is not the Baha'is who have the problem with unity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yet you cause disunity over one word.

I cause or you cause? You said:
"Baha'is cannot agree that there is more than one God just to promote unity because that would be dishonest, since it goes against our primary belief in One True God."
We don't have that primary belief and we are not going to sacrifice our primary belief of many Gods and Goddesses on the Bahai altar.
So, we should follow what Quran said so clearly. Your beliefs are your beliefs and our beliefs are our beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

I cause or you cause? You said:
"Baha'is cannot agree that there is more than one God just to promote unity because that would be dishonest, since it goes against our primary belief in One True God."
We don't have that primary belief and we are not going to sacrifice our primary belief of many Gods and Goddesses on the Bahai altar.
So, we should follow what Quran said so clearly. Your beliefs are your beliefs and our beliefs are our beliefs.

You do not have to sacrifice anything, nor do we. We can all keep our beliefs and respect the beliefs of others. Disagreement does not need to lead to disrespect. We can learn from each other.

Life is difficult enough as it is, but one thing we can do to make it better is to all get along in a spirit of unity and harmony. I was very happy today when an atheist with whom I had a falling out almost a year ago and I had a nice dialogue on another forum and after that he invited me back to his forum to post in a private folder he created just for me and one of my friends... That is what I mean by living in the spirit of unity and harmony.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Life is difficult enough as it is, but one thing we can do to make it better is to all get along in a spirit of unity and harmony. I was very happy today when an atheist with whom I had a falling out almost a year ago and I had a nice dialogue on another forum and after that he invited me back to his forum to post in a private folder he created just for me and one of my friends... That is what I mean by living in the spirit of unity and harmony.

Oh, you are talking of 'dharma' without my acceptance of the manifestation of your God, i.e., Bahaullah. I agree to that, provided you do not insist that Krishna also was a manifestation of your God who came earlier than Bahaullah, and that Krishna's teachings stand replaced by teachings of Bahaullah. That is a bit egoistic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, you are talking of 'dharma' without my acceptance of the manifestation of your God, i.e., Bahaullah. I agree to that, provided you do not insist that Krishna also was a manifestation of your God who came earlier than Bahaullah, and that Krishna's teachings stand replaced by teachings of Bahaullah. That is a bit egoistic.

To be clear, nobody has to accept the concept of Manifestations of God and nobody has to accept Baha'u'llah as the latest one, unless they CHOOSE to become a Baha'i.

I do not insist anything about Krishna because I do not even know much about him, and I do not recall that Baha'u'llah ever referred to Him as a Manifestation of God. Maybe some other Baha'is know more than I do.

Baha'u'llah did not replace the teachings of any former religions, He just renewed the eternal spiritual teachings of former religions and He revealed new social teachings and laws for this new age.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah did not replace the teachings of any former religions, He just renewed the eternal spiritual teachings of former religions and He revealed new social teachings and laws for this new age.

Renewed, changed? Or just reaffirmed, as Buddha did. Did the old teachings required any addition? I do not think so. 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam' (The world is a family) is a millennium-old Hindu saying.

"Ayam, nijah, paro veti, ganānām laghuchetsām; udāracharitānām tu vasudhaiva kutumbakam."
(He is mine, he is another, not mine, such are thoughts of narrow minded people. For the noble minded the whole world is a family)
Maha Upanishad

 

[Trailblazer]

Renewed, changed? Or just reaffirmed, as Buddha did. Did the old teachings required any addition? I do not think so. 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam' (The world is a family) is a millennium-old Hindu saying.

"Ayam, nijah, paro veti, ganānām laghuchetsām; udāracharitānām tu vasudhaiva kutumbakam."
(He is mine, he is another, not mine, such are thoughts of narrow minded people. For the noble minded the whole world is a family)
Maha Upanishad

The spiritual virtues are reaffirmed. They are also renewed because people forget them over time.

“These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.” Some Answered Questions, p. 47

 

[Aupmanyav]

They are never lost, they are eternal. They are ignored.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are never lost, they are eternal. They are ignored.

You are right. That is what I meant, they are ignored.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Come as many manifestations as your God or Bahaullah deems fit, they would still be ignored by majority. That is the irony. And it seems your God has no answer for it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Come as many manifestations as your God or Bahaullah deems fit, they would still be ignored by majority. That is the irony. And it seems your God has no answer for it.

The Manifestations of God are always ignored in the beginning and for a long time afterwards. Even after over 2000 years the world is only 33% Christian. The reason for that is obvious. It is called religious tradition. People always cling to the religion they were raised with or one they found later that they are attached to. It does not seem to matter to people what is actually the Truth from God. Emotions normally speak louder than the rational mind.

God cannot DO anything about any of this because humans have free will to choose what to believe. Most people will always choose what they want, what suits their needs and interests the best. So if people want individual salvation, they are going to choose Christianity. If people care about all of humanity and the future of mankind, they might be interested in the Baha'i Faith.

Psychology is my educational background so I always analyze people and their behavior from a psychological perspective.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God cannot DO anything about any of this because humans have free will to choose what to believe.

I am sorry for your powerless God. I thought they were supposed to be omnipotent.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am sorry for your powerless God. I thought they were supposed to be omnipotent.

God could override human free will and make people believe in Baha'u'llah if He wanted to, but God chooses not to do that....
It is not necessary that everyone believes in Baha'u'llah. The work will get done by the few who choose to believe in Him and His message and eventually the few will be many.