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Featured I think God will understand

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Nov 2, 2020.

  1. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Was that a typo up there where you said "Satan said "do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" or are you suggesting instead something like Marcion:
    Marcionism - Wikipedia

    "Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

    Genesis 3:3-
    3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’ ”
    4“You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.

    Genesis 3:21-
    21And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and He clothed them. 22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

    Are you sure God wants you to be like God?

    I also can understand the mix up with God and Satan:

    Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1[​IMG])

    Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1[​IMG])

    "In the first account, God moves David to take a census. In the second account, Satan moves David to take a census."

    ______________

    2 Corinthians 4:4
    3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light

    2 Thessalonians 2:11
    For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,

    _____________

    Hebrews 2:14
    Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--

    Deuteronomy 32:39
    "See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    ___________________

    Ephesians 2:2
    in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

    Job 37:15
    14Listen to this, O Job; stand still and consider the wonders of God. 15Do you know how God controls the clouds or makes the lightning flash?16Do you understand how the clouds float, those wonders of Him who is perfect in knowledge?

    Amos 4:13
    For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of Armies (God of WAR), is his name.

    __________________

    Luke 11:17-
    17Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and a house divided against a house will fall. 18 If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? After all, you say that I drive out demons by Beelzebul. 19And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.

    Judges 9:23
    And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,

    1 Samuel 18:10
    The next day an evil spirit sent from God came powerfully on Saul, and he began to rave inside the palace. David was playing the lyre as usual, but Saul was holding a spear,

    1 Samuel 16:14
    After the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, a spirit of distress from the LORD began to torment him.

    ______________

    1 Kings 22:22-
    22And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ ‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’23So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you.”

    John 8:44
    You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Jeremiah 31:9
    They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

    __________________
     
  2. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Part 2:

    "
    his is what the Lord says to me: “As a lion growls, a great lion over his prey—and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against him, he is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor—so the Lord Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.” (Isaiah 31:4 NIV)

    The Lord, like the lion, will come down and do battle with His people.

    It is interesting to note that the devil is also referred to as acting like a lion in Scripture. Peter wrote of this.

    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8 NKJV)"

    ____________

    Revelation 4:5
    From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

    Zechariah 9:14
    Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south,

    Luke 10:18
    But he said to them, “I was beholding Satan himself who descended like lightning from Heaven.”

    ______________

    1 John 1:5
    This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Isaiah 2:5
    Come, O house of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the LORD.

    Daniel 2:22
    He reveals the deep and hidden things; He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him.

    James 1:17
    Every generous act of giving and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father of the heavenly lights, in whom there is no inconsistency or shifting shadow.

    Genesis 3:7
    Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    2 Corinthians 11:14-
    And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
    Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
    ______________________

    So would you look at that? Point for Point for Point, God, Satan, God, Satan, God Satan, GodSatan, GoSadan, Gosdan, Gadan, Dan:

    Deuteronomy 33:22
    Concerning Dan he said: “Dan is a lion’s cub, leaping out of Bashan.”

    Genesis 49:17
    Dan will be a snake by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse's heels so that its rider tumbles backward.

    Genesis 3:15
    And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."


    1. Δάν (Dán) – Aeolic

      Dan is the Aeolic word for Zeus, who was considered the Power of the Air, the Ruler of Spirits, the appearance of which was like a Lion, who appeared as a Serpent, and so on and so forth.

      "Light: As the god of thunder and lightning, “Zeus’ name is thought to have originated from the Ancient Greek word for “bright.” Perhaps word had gotten to Athens of the angel at Christ’s tomb whose “appearance was like lightning” ( Matthew 28:3 ), causing confusion about who Jesus was."

      "But, the Olympian Zeus known as Zeus Meilichios assumes the form of a serpent to attend the spring rites of the mother-goddess Earth. Zeus, as a serpent coiled with Rhea, who had also taken the form of a snake. The snake from then on becomes the symbol of earth and water.

      Ophion, one of the Greek Titans means literally "serpent". It is claimed that Zeus took the form of a serpent to escape from the murderous aggression of his father, Chronos."

      "The Greek Daemons [daemonae] were the invisible divine beings which were assigned by Zeus to every god and every important human being as sort of a guardian angel creature to give good advice and lead them properly. The Daemons ( from which, of course we get our word demon) could appear as a handsome young youth or as a wise serpent.


      It is Greek mythology which gives us the most memorable heavenly divine serpent. By heavenly, I mean literally, since I am speaking of the constellation Draco or the Dragon. One only has to look at this constellation to realize that this "dragon" is a serpent in every aspect. Draco is the pet of Zeus."

      Revelation 12:9
      The great DRAKKON (Serpent) was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

      John 12:31
      Now judgment is upon this world; now the ARCHON (Ruler, King) of this world will be cast out.
    John 9:39
    Then Jesus declared, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind."

    Strong's #758: archon (pronounced ar'-khone)

    present participle of 757; a first (in rank or power):--chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

    ̓́
    archōn

    1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
     
  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    You must have been reading a different Bible translation then I have been reading
     
  4. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    That is clearly not what I said. You take my words out of context and put them in another wrong context.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe God gave us free will so we reap what we sow. As such rewards and punishments are in accordance with a just God, and they exist both in this world and in the next...

    “The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219
     
    #86 Trailblazer, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  7. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    Yep you are right i wrote wrong;)

    What I meant is that Satan wanted Eve to eat from the tree of good and evil because God had forbidden Eve and Adam from eating from that tree. Satan wanted Eve to eat it because Satan wanted rebellion against God.

    I wrote this in another tread:

    Satan wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. What I meant was Satan said "do eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil".

    No God does NOT want us to be like God. But Satan rebelled against God. That was why satan wanted eva to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    God said: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Genesis 2:17

    Since Satan is against God he said to Eve:

    The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?

    and

    But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.


    THATS SATANS LIE!! THAT WE WILL NOT DIE! SATANS LIE IS THAT WE ARE LIKE GOD. WE ARE NOT!! OUR SOULS IS NOT ETERNAL . THATS A BIG LIE
     
  8. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    I agree with you.
     
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  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    In your humble opinion of course:D
     
  10. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    an omniscient being probably has no cause to wonder about anything under the sun in the sand-box he is said to have designed and built, would it hold any mystery for the architect? any reason for "surprise"?o_O
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That may well be the case... This is what my religion says on the matter.

    "This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"

    (Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)
     
  12. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Hi,

    "there are many Gods...there is actually to us one God...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ... nevertheless, there is not this knowledge in all persons..." (1Cor 8:6)

    "You must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (part of the Mosaic law) Ex 34:14)

    Cheers.
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You can buy or reject whatever you wish, as you seem to do on a regular basis. I personally could not ride your spiritual roller coaster. But those are your choices to make as often as you like.

    Racism was rampant in Bible times, (as was sexism) but Jesus was not being racist (or sexist) because such concepts did not exist back then....he was simply fulfilling what he was sent to do in the short time he had to do it....to give the Jews first opportunity to become that “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” that God had promised them.

    The Phoenician woman did not fall within his assignment and he did not call her a dog, but the word used for “little dogs” (puppies, which were commonly seen in Gentile homes in much the same way as they are today). What he said to her reflected the constraints of the situation of the day. But her faith was demonstrated to the point where he granted her request. Her response showed that she understood the situation.....it’s a shame that the faultfinders don’t.

    Gentiles were always going to be included in God’s purpose because his promise to Abraham included “all the nations” receiving his blessing, but for that time and place, that offer was down the track a bit.

    If you recall the incident with the Samaritan woman Jesus met at a well.....Jewish men would not normally converse with women, and with Samaritan women even less so....but Jesus revealed who he was to this woman before he ever did so to anyone else.

    You seem to want to put today’s standards on a time and place where such was not even considered.
     
  14. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because man false prophets have gone forth into the world". (1John 4:1)
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There have been many false prophets and they are still in the world, but the existence of false prophets in no way proves that there can be no true prophets. If there were never going to be any true prophets, there would have been no reason for Jesus to say the following:

    Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus does not leave us in any doubt about the criteria that needs to be fulfilled in order for God to accept us as his worshippers. We saw in the covenant that Jehovah made with Israel, that there are specific things that must be upheld as we Christians worship this same God. He has standards and nothing short of them will suffice.

    Satan has hijacked the human race and claimed that they needed to know what God knows.....the real difference between good and evil. We see down through history that humans are not good at judging that difference. One will judge something as "good" whilst another will judge that same thing as "bad". This is the whole reason why God wanted to keep that knowledge to himself. We are not programmed like robots, but have free will, so we can choose to disobey God as Adam and his wife did. Jesus showed us how to keep ourselves in God's love by willingly obeying him from our hearts. We have to love what God loves and hate what he hates.

    There was no need for humans to ever experience evil......but they chose to know it, and we have been reaping the consequences of their decision ever since.

    If God has such specific criteria, then who as a global brotherhood demonstrate that they are fulfilling every part of it?

    In Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus said...
    “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

    What do you see there in Jesus' strong words?
    What does “doing the will of the Father” actually mean in real terms? What are those “Christians” whom he rejects, offering Jesus by way of excuses? Did they consider themselves as Christ’s true disciples? Apparently doing all those things “in his name”, they thought so? But, if he “never knew them” and they were "workers of lawlessness" in his eyes, then what were they missing?

    Go back to the very beginning for the answer.....what did God require of the first humans? He desired their obedience before anything else. God has never said that he will save “good” people....(good humanitarians for example can be atheists). The first and most important command for Jesus followers was the same as it was for the Jews....to "love God with their whole heart". He will reward the “obedient” ones....those who can do as he commands without adding or subtracting anything. They will not do this begrudgingly but willingly. They must love God with their whole being, so whatever he asks of them they willingly comply....even if the world makes that difficult, or it makes them unpopular. (John 15:18-21)

    Its not about wearing labels either.....God does not see labels...he sees hearts in a sincere desire to please him and to keep all of his commandments. (not just the convenient ones) At the end of the day, Jesus says he 'knows those who belong to him' and in fact, all of them are invited by the Father to come to his son.

    "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him " . . . ."He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".
    (John 6:44; 65)
    If we don't get an invitation from God, we will not understand very much at all.

    All who are saved are indeed "Jehovah's Witnesses" because that is what they are....not just what they call themselves. Even the nation of Israel were called Jehovah's "witnesses".....

    "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, (יִֽהְיֶֽה) "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be. יאַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י לֹ֥א יִֽהְיֶֽה: (Isaiah 43:10 Tanakh)

    So no, not just the modern day Witnesses of Jehovah but all those down through history who faithfully served their God יִֽהְיֶֽה ......from the time of Abel to the present day. All had to adhere to the teachings laid down in God's word.....none who add or subtract their own ideas will pass that test. :(
     
  17. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Hi,
    Thanks for those comments, which are true.
    The question remains though, who other than Christ fulfilled the requirements of a prophet like, but greater than Moses ?
    (De 18:15...;Mt 21:11; Lu 24:19; Ac 3:19...)

    Since Jesus claimed that no one can come to the father except through him, why do we need another prophet ?
    (j0hn 14:16)
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Those are both very good questions. According to my beliefs, no Prophet is greater than any other Prophet, because they are all sent by God and they all reflect the attributes of God.

    “These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 48


    That said, some Prophets have a more important mission from God and a bigger impact upon all of humanity. I believe that Christ falls into that category.

    Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and He came to complete the work that Jesus started. Thus Baha'u'llah was the fulfillment of the Promises of Jesus to build the Kingdom of God on earth, and His mission was a very important one.

    You are correct, Jesus claimed that no one can come to the Father except through Him:

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    I believe that the reason that Jesus said that is because there is only "one way" to the Father during each religious dispensation, so Jesus was the only way to the Father during His dispensation.

    Dispensation
    1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
    2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
    3. a divinely appointed order or age:
    e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

    Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

    That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world was through Jesus during the Christian dispensation. Baha'is believe that dispensation ended and now the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through Baha'u'llah, because He is the Messenger of God (Prophet) for the present dispensation, which correlates to the age in which we now live. This dispensation will last until the coming of another Messenger of God, who will usher in another new dispensation.
     
  19. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Fully agree. God can connect in heart with someone whose theology isn't 100% correct but is inclined to positivity. It is this connection that bears fruits.
     
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  20. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Hi,

    I understand what your saying, however dispensation is just a fancy theological word for revelation, there is no reason to imply a meaning to it other than the one given to us by God's word.

    When Jesus said:
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    He did not put any limitations on this statement, as if it had a use-by-date.
    Doing so is going "beyond what is written".(1Cor 4:6)

    Anyone attempting to undermine this inspired sayings (by Christ), and other revelations by using secular or pseudo-religious reasoning such as Abdu'l-Bahá used extensively in his work, cannot be a true prophet, and will only serve to complicate the simple words of truth from the bible.(1John 4:3)

    Cheers.
     
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