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I swear...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Messianic Israelite, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. Messianic Israelite

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    Strictly speaking, I'm not a Chr-stian because we use the Hebrew names Yahweh and Yahshua, one thing I note is that the speech of so called Chr-stians is unacceptable. I'm not just talking profanity, which should never be heard out of the mouth of anyone religious (I sure never have used profanity), I'm talking about when people make promises. 'I swear on my mother's grave that...' and so on. Yet Yahshua taught against doing this in the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:33-37.

    Chr-stians often claim to hold the Messiah in high esteem. Shouldn't they be more careful to follow these instructions and admonish those who do not obey the 'good tidings'. I've heard a number of Chr-stians make these sorts of promises when our speech should be plain and truthful ('yes' or 'no').

    Having to swear on (say) your mums life suggests you can't be trusted in others things you say. Rather, if you're a truth speaker, you don't have to make excuses, or convolute your language to demonstrate a point. In verse 37 Yahshua says 'and whatever is more than these is of the evil one'. The evil one would have to try to offer reassurances because he cannot be trusted.
     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Let me tell you my experience. Over 25 years ago I was a charismatic, and I had a new friend who had been saved for a few years. He began to get involved with Assemblies of Yahweh instead of our church which was not *as* bible study oriented though we were encouraged to read bibles and had some sunday school classes. He started using 'Yeshua' and 'Yahweh' in speech and started wearing tassels which he called talit. He later stopped wearing the tassels. I didn't really know what he was all about, and in hindsight I think we charismatics were not really that interested. I didn't take an interest, and I don't know why. I guess I had a lot of other interests. He eventually had a Jewish style wedding, the only Jewish wedding that I ever attended; and he invited me. I don't know if the wedding lasted for more than one day, but I went to the wedding itself and reception afterward. The food was great. There was a huge bowl of hummus, and I have only been to two weddings with such a huge bowl of hummus. I don't know if assemblies of yahweh is just into hummus or if the other weddings I attended have been starvation weddings. I was young, and it wasn't until much later that I became more cognizant of just how expensive it could be to feed so many people, so I would probably not have such a gorgeous wedding myself. Well, I might get my relatives involved; and I might get them to cook things. There are ways.

    My thought is that you may not consider yourself a Christian, but then you are kind of stuck with us anyway all of us the whole spectrum. Anyways I was never that studious but through the oddities of time and falling absentmindedly into caves and the meeting of strangers I became more biblically aware than I ever sought to be.

    I honestly still don't understand why anyone would want to pronounce yahweh all the time or insist on saying yeshua. These are sounds, and they are no more important than skin color to me. The blood has our life in it, and we all share one blood, one breath, one mother; do we not?
     
  3. MikeDwight

    MikeDwight Active Member

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    I'm not saying anyone can or should change your mind. However I feel like warming your heart... Through Song... Presenting...

     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Covenants are not explicitly discussed in the biblical canon, so you must realize that Jesus is referring to things that are not easily referenced. We know there are covenants and the word does appear, but it is not explained. A person who says 'I swear' can be and usually is ignorant of what they mean. Jesus gives his teachings to Jews; so mostly likely what he doesn't want is for Jews to keep adding things to their covenant, which they already have. They have a covenant, so covenants aren't evil. Its some sort of nuance between Jesus and his fellow Jews. His examples to them of no-no swearing are swears upon items from the temple, which likely involves them in the covenant with Israel, adding on to that covenant; as if they could.

    The context for Matthew 24 is a discussion about discipleship and gathering disciples of peace. It is one and the same with his 'Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel'. I think its a mistake to focus only upon the words 'do not swear', because swearing is part of the torah and cannot be changed. Notice his comparison to swearing upon gifts on the altar versus the altar has a lot in common with the separation of the court of Gentiles from the court of the Jews. Very likely he's talking about their attitudes towards gentiles though he doesn't explicitly say so.

    Today to those in Christ all people are holy, and the altar and the gift are equally holy as mentioned in Zechariah 14:20. "On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar." (NIV Zec 14:20 NIV)
     
  5. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Outward vs inward.
     
  6. Messianic Israelite

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    @Brickjectivity
    Good afternoon. That group doesn't sound like the Assemblies of Yahweh to me. You have to watch out, they are counterfeit organisations. I'm referring to the one headquartered in Bethel PA. There is also an African one who infringe on the name by calling themselves Assemblies of Yahweh International. Perhaps that's the one you refer to. Furthermore, we don't use the term Yeshua. 'Ye' was substituted for 'Yah' by people who didn't want to pronounce the 'ineffable' name. The Messiah's name was Yahshua and it's the only name in which there is salvation (Acts 4:12).

    In the samaritan tradition, the tallit is a gown worn over their clothes during most holy days. Biblically, it is not something that need be worn. We certainly don't wear it in my faith so I don't know what organisation you are referring to. I'm not sure about the hummus at weddings either. It might be a thing, it might not. I'm not sure. But I do like hummus :)

    Well, we're not Chr-stian because of other reasons, such as we don't adhere to the Triad or Trinity. We're content to be labelled not as Chr-stains although that is the faith we most commonly are associated with since we believe in the Bible.

    What do you mean when you say, falling absentmindedly into caves?
     
  7. Messianic Israelite

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    Could you elucidate?
     
  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    God does not care about outward things, e.g. names spellings, God concerns about our good consciousness.
     
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  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    So, do you believe that everyone should be Jewish? I've never met a Jew that thought everyone else should be Jewish.

    The reason I ask is that Christians are not Jews. Not the modern-day ones, anyway. So why would you expect them to follow Jewish precepts? When Jesus was preaching he was a Jew preaching to other Jews. So he admonished them to follow Jewish laws, ideals and traditions, and he did, himself. But Jews are not evangelical. Not then and not now. They do not believe that a non-Jew must become a Jew to be "right with God". So it is very unlikely that Jesus would have been suggesting that, or expecting that, of any of any non-Jews, then or today.
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    The Bible also commands believers not to criticize fellow believers in public, or to make an issue of disagreements among the faithful, yet here you are.

    What did Jesus say about motes and beams?
     
  11. Messianic Israelite

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    @Brickjectivity
    You're referring to covenants which isn't what the Messiah was referring to. It's very plain that Yahshua was referring to speech. Speaking righteously. He says "37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." which ties in with verse 6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

    I'm not sure why you're in Matthew 24. I am referring to Matthew 5.
     
  12. Messianic Israelite

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    Respectfully, I'm not sure what you are talking about Penguin. I'm just pointing out what's already there in the Bible. If you take my post as a criticism then you take Yahshua's words as a criticism and that's something for your conscience to deal with, not mine.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    ... just like the scribes and Pharisees who Jesus condemned.

    The Bible suggests that it isn't your place to do this even if Jesus does it.

    Romans 14:4:
    Who are you to pass judgment on another’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


    Are these people you're judging your servants, or are they God's?
     
  14. Messianic Israelite

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    @leov Yahweh doesn't care about spelling? I think that makes you a judge doesn't it? Yahweh does care about spellings especially you should consider the fact that the entire Bible is written in language which is a communication tool based on spelling. To say that spelling is not important is ridiculous and a affront to the scribes who tried to meticulously copy down what was said for fear of misspelling or for fear it being mistranslated.

    But you are right about one thing. Yahweh does care about our good consciousness too.
     
  15. Messianic Israelite

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    @Penguin
    But I'm not passing judgment on another servant. The Messiah said that the glad tidings would be heralded around the world in Matthew 28. That wouldn't be possible if we ignored what the Messiah said. The scribes and Pharisees were condemned for their hypocrisy. They said, but did not. I'm not doing any of those things which means you can't compare me to scribes and Pharisees.
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    It sure seems that way to me.

    ... which you aren't ignoring (right?), so check mark for you. Your part is done.

    I can and did.
     
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  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Wow ! I am so glad God gave someone the right to judge others, thank you for your wisdom.

    I am assuming, of course, that when you judge Christians, you are judging all of us.

    Your condemnation, as written, applies to us all.

    So then, how did God enlighten you as to this sin that we all have committed ? Did you have a vision where He told you ¨ just condemn all the millions of them ¨. Or, in your vision, did he review every Christian with you, so you speak with the authority of knowledge ?

    Why do you leave out a letter in the Greek word Christ ? Is this your personal tetragrammaton ?

    Yes, swearing is a sin, along with many other things, and I bet even you are guilty of one or two of them.

    I think you need to see an ophthalmologist.
     
  18. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    So one should not swear on the Bible, then? LOL

    Words have many different meanings and the same spelling in another language won't even have a related meaning sometimes. Also, what might be considered profane in one culture isn't in another culture.

    I believe you are sincere when you say you have never used profanity, but I also believe you are probably mistaken.
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Forgive me. Oops I meant to address Matthew 23, and I was not looking at 5. You were talking about 5. In 5 he's addressing his friends. In 23 he's addressing some people who oppose what he says.
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Not if they take the Bible seriously, no.

    @Messianic Israelite didn't invent this interpretation. It's famously a pretty common interpretation by Quakers, too.
     
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