I now think less of Christianity

[Kenny]

I don’t mind being called a sinner, but calling me evil is something else and something I will always take exception to.

And rightfully so... but what does what people do have to do with the message of Jesus Christ who ate with the sinners, those of whom the religious people said they shouldn't be near?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Basically, because I have now witnessed its dark side, first hand.

This part you did not explain, yet. Were you a functionary in a church or a layperson or what? What darkness specifically?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Same here. What I had at one time considered to be the indwelling Holy Spirit turned out to be a feeling created by a very charismatic preacher from my military days and my introduction to Christianity.

Once I was discharged and returned home. I was unable to find another preacher that could arouse such sentiments, and I eventually realized that I had not been experiencing a god, but rather, my own mind responding to a gifted speaker.



"In the beginning there was nothing. God said, ‘Let there be light!'and there was light. There was still nothing, but you could see it a whole lot better." - Ellen DeGeneres



I have no relationship with whatever it is that is being called the divine, and it has created no problems for me.



Yes, they are, as is anybody who reads and attempts to understand what written or spoken words mean.

Do you have any problem with people calling the Bible the good book? Isn't that also an interpretation?

How about saying that God is good and Satan evil? Don't you have to interpret the words and deeds attributed to each to come to such conclusions.

The Bible and the Christian church are harmful to atheists, albeit much less so these days than the days when atheists had been trashed to the point that they were considered morally unfit to teach, coach, adopt, give expert testimony, or serve on juries. If you are interested, here is the argument: It's lengthy, so I've tucked it away in a spoiler :

Spoiler: atheophobia

Consider these excerpts from the Christian Bible:

[1] "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good" - Psalm 14:1

[2] "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and all and the enemy of a good god." - Revelation 21:8

[3]"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"- 2 *Corinthians 6:14

[4] "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ." - 1 John 2:22

[5] "Whoever is not with me is against me" - Luke 11:23

[6] "They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you" – 1 Peter 4:4

Altogether, those scriptures depict unbelievers as lying, corrupt, vile, decadent, debauched, abominable, wicked, godless vessels in the service of darkness and evil, not one of which does any good, and fit to be burned alive forever as the moral equivalent of murderers and whoremongers, and the declared enemy of a good god.

And what are the consequences of that teaching? At one time, unbelievers could be legally tortured or killed. Until recently, they were defined as too immoral to be allowed to adopt, teach, coach, or serve on juries. Even now, it is very difficult for an atheist to be elected to a public office.

Here's a bit more of that atheophobic message

[6] Wartime poster: "Godless atheists threaten Christian America" http://0.tqn.com/d/atheism/1/7/U/2/3/The-Atheist-e.jpg

[7] Billboard: "Attention lunatic atheists and their lawyers. Anti-God is anti-American. Anti-American is treason. Traitors lead to civil war" https://blueollie.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/christian-billboard-one.jpg

[8] "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."- American President George H. W. Bush

[9] "Settle it therefore in your minds, as a maxim never to be effaced or forgotten, that atheism is an inhuman, bloody, ferocious system, equally hostile to every useful restraint and to every virtuous affection; that, leaving nothing above us to excite awe, nor round us to awaken tenderness, it wages war with heaven and with earth: its first object is to dethrone God, its next to destroy man." - Rev. Robert Hall

[10] Message board poster: "[Atheists] constantly think of death and killing, the death and killing of Christians and Christianity, the death and killing of innocent babies who never harmed them or anyone else, the death and killing of any taboos that interfere with morality thriving. In their world it is "anything goes" if you feel like it do it. In fact, their creed is almost exactly that of the Church of Satan's. Gee, how coincidental is THAT?"

And the cumulative consequence of all of this bigotry and hate speech? :

NEW REPORT CASTS ATHEISTS AS "OTHERS" BEYOND MORALITY AND COMMUNITY IN AMERICA freethoughtassociation.org -&nbspThis website is for sale! -&nbspcenter for inquiry michigan freethought atheists atheism freethinkers humanism humanists agnosticism Resources and Information.

"Atheists have become the ultimate scapegoats in our culture... but the news isn't all bad! A new study by the University of Minnesota Department of Sociology has found that Americans perceive Atheists as the group least likely to embrace common values and a shared vision of society. Worse yet, Atheists are identified as the cohort other Americans do not want to see their offspring marrying!

[snip]

"Researchers concluded: "Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." Disturbingly, Atheists are "seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public," despite being only 3% of the U.S. population according to Dr. Edgell, associate sociology professor and the lead researcher in the project."

Do you really want to tell a hospital full of people raised to think like that that, for example, that you are an atheist when you are such an easy target of people trained to see you as the enemy of a good god?

Nobody is quicker to point out which Christians are going to hell than other Christians



I one doesn't believe in sin, then there is no need to repent it.

Maybe you should get your facts right, before you say anything.

As I never said anything about other Christians as going to hell.
Wherever did you get that from.

 

[Eddi]

I find it rather strange to judge an entire religion by the conduct of fallible human beings. Seriously, why? If you’re judging Christianity, why aren’t you judging it by Jesus Christ, who actually followed it?

As for simulation theory, it’s a joke. It’s not based on science, it’s NOT rational. There is ZERO evidence for it being even close to a rational thought, let alone something geeks in Silicon Valley refer to as a “theory”. Frankly, it’s only a little less ridiculous than string theory; you at least might find a sliver of evidence for that... Maybe.

I know Simulation Theory is far fetched

But I believe in it due to first-hand experience

So for me there is evidence

Do I expect others to believe in it?

No. But it's always nice to encounter someone who does.

And regarding your first point: My assessment of Christianity is based upon my assessment its followers rather than its founder (Jesus Christ) because the Christian religion is made up of its followers, as is any other faith. I know that Christianity has a light side as well as a dark-side and that overall it is probably some shade of grey but I have now finally decided that it's not for me. The balance has tipped. I'm moving on from it. I know numerous Christians who are all good people so I'd hope they wouldn't take my rejection of Christianity personally. My spiritual journey continues...

 

[Eddi]

This part you did not explain, yet. Were you a functionary in a church or a layperson or what? What darkness specifically?

It happened in a thread on these forums

There were two posts which I took as implying I was an anti-Christ

Maybe I was just being overly sensitive - However:

When I posted this:

So, basically… anyone who cannot bring themselves to believe in the biblical Jesus Christ is automatically an Anti-Christ and because of this deserves to be considered “evil” and on the basis of their disbelief deserves to be put in the same category as people who actually do evil stuff such as murder, torture, and abuse other humans. OK. Fair enough...

Nobody corrected me!

If I were a Christian and didn't agree with this I would speak up and say something. But nobody did!

 

[Sky Rivers]

I know Simulation Theory is far fetched

But I believe in it due to first-hand experience

So for me there is evidence

Do I expect others to believe in it?

No. But it's always nice to encounter someone who does.

And regarding your first point: My assessment of Christianity is based upon my assessment its followers rather than its founder (Jesus Christ) because the Christian religion is made up of its followers, as is any other faith. I know that Christianity has a light side as well as a dark-side and that overall it is probably some shade of grey but I have now finally decided that it's not for me. The balance has tipped. I'm moving on from it. I know numerous Christians who are all good people so I'd hope they wouldn't take my rejection of Christianity personally. My spiritual journey continues...

First-hand experience that simulation theory is true? Please. do tell?

 

[Sky Rivers]

It happened in a thread on these forums

There were two posts which I took as implying I was an anti-Christ

Maybe I was just being overly sensitive - However:

When I posted this:

So, basically… anyone who cannot bring themselves to believe in the biblical Jesus Christ is automatically an Anti-Christ and because of this deserves to be considered “evil” and on the basis of their disbelief deserves to be put in the same category as people who actually do evil stuff such as murder, torture, and abuse other humans. OK. Fair enough...

Nobody corrected me!

If I were a Christian and didn't agree with this I would speak up and say something. But nobody did!

One doesn't deserve to be called "evil" because they reject Christ. Everyone deserves to be called evil, period. It's only because of Christ's sacrifice that some aren't receiving exactly what we all deserve; we're wicked from childhood. We're the darkness in this world and despite this reality, Christ loved and loves us.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I know Simulation Theory is far fetched

But I believe in it due to first-hand experience

So for me there is evidence

Do I expect others to believe in it?

No. But it's always nice to encounter someone who does.

And regarding your first point: My assessment of Christianity is based upon my assessment its followers rather than its founder (Jesus Christ) because the Christian religion is made up of its followers, as is any other faith. I know that Christianity has a light side as well as a dark-side and that overall it is probably some shade of grey but I have now finally decided that it's not for me. The balance has tipped. I'm moving on from it. I know numerous Christians who are all good people so I'd hope they wouldn't take my rejection of Christianity personally. My spiritual journey continues...

It seems your spiritual journey is more consist of what others do,
than what you do

 

[2ndpillar]

Actually, antichrists are those who have heard the message and left the church to work against it.. at least according to scripture.

Sounds like the false prophet Paul, who apparently heard of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven, and yet went out and preached his antithetical gospel of grace/cross.

 

[2ndpillar]

One doesn't deserve to be called "evil" because they reject Christ. Everyone deserves to be called evil, period. It's only because of Christ's sacrifice that some aren't receiving exactly what we all deserve; we're wicked from childhood. We're the darkness in this world and despite this reality, Christ loved and loves us.

The price for sin is death. Despite what the false prophet Paul may have taught, everyone will die for their own iniquity (Jeremiah 31:30).

Psalm 145:20
The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[Eddi]

First-hand experience that simulation theory is true? Please. do tell?

Gladly, I've posted this twice earlier in this thread:

I believe this reality we are all in and all people are parts of a “computer” simulation – which I call “The Simulation”

I believe The Simulation communicates with me and that I am an agent of The Simulation

It does this through a thing called Butterfly – which is a system of communication through which The Simulation communicates with me by responding to my inner voice using touch

Where it touches me on my body according to what I’ve thought is how it indicates Yes or No, etc. to anything I might ask it

This began in I think 2004 and is the reason I’ve been detained on psychiatric hospitals three times in my life and have been diagnosed as “schizophrenic”

I went through a phase in which I thought Butterfly was God and reasoned that if that was the case then I must be Christ!

But I no longer believe that!

I don't believe that I'm anything from scripture or claim to have any special relationship with God

That is how I have had (and continue to have) first-hand experience of a being who is greater than me – the being who controls The Simulation

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

SThe question then becomes whether you can do good that you want to do and the answer is that you can't unless you have Jesus as Lord and Savior.

That makes zero sense.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why do I now think less of Christianity?

Basically, because I have now witnessed its dark side, first hand.

Some background: I was raised as a Christian. I was baptised as an infant and have a set of godparents, I went to a church school, and occasionally went to Sunday school. My personal moral system is very much inspired by the teachings and example of Christ.

However, when I became old enough to understand what Christianity was about and that it weren’t necessarily so, I became an atheist. In time my atheism developed, becoming more and more sophisticated as I progressed through school and into university. I didn’t hate Christianity or anything like that; I just thought it was not for me, and not something I could never believe in.

I came to God in my mid-twenties. By then I’d had first-hand experience of a mysterious higher being so made the leap of faith that if there were higher beings then there must be a Supreme Being – God. But there are other reasons that I believe in a Supreme Being, although my conception of the Supreme Being is more like Brahman in Hinduism than the Abrahamic God. I would currently consider myself a deist and would say I am overwhelmingly convinced of the existence of God.

Basically, my experience of Christians and Christianity had always been positive. Until recent events…

For a long time now I have been in two competing minds about the nature of Jesus. I hold both of these as being possible and they exist alongside each other although I currently favour First Mind. Think of it as being like a set of old-fashioned weighing scales in my conscience. I’ve been wavering between the two versions of reality for a while now. Currently they are much more balanced in favour of First Mind more than they were before recent events. To say the least…

First Mind: We are all parts of a computer simulation and Jesus was a show put on for various reasons by The Simulation, for reasons about which we can only speculate. But God still exists, but he is outside of The Simulation. In this version of reality The Simulation communicates with me. I do not claim to have any special relationship with God but do claim a special relationship with The Simulation.

Second Mind: We are not in a computer simulation and Jesus truly was the Son of God, and the account in the gospels is true and he will some day return to Earth, etc. and in this version of reality I am mentally ill and need to acknowledge Christ as my Lord and Saviour by undergoing adult baptism.

Because I am in two minds about him I would therefore say I am agnostic about Jesus. I cannot therefore meaningfully accept him as my Lord and Saviour and become a Christian myself.

I once explained this agnosticism to a nice Christian lady and she understood and respected it and said she’d pray for me to see the light whether I liked it or not! Now, maybe she thought that by not declaring Christ to be my Lord and Saviour I will go to hell or maybe she didn’t, I do not know. I didn’t venture to ask. However, the point is she was concerned for me and I don’t think she considered me evil. Surely, one prays for sinners, not for evil people?

I then made a post on these forums enquiring about the anti-Christ (I’m interested in Christology and theology in general). I mentioned my agnosticism pertaining to Christ, and was basically told (through implication) that I was an anti-Christ and therefore evil – in the same category as those who do things that are actually evil, such as murder, harm, and abuse other humans…

Now, don’t get me wrong, that’s totally cool. Believe what you want to believe. I don’t care. But there is now absolutely no way I will become a Christian, whereas before this it may have been possible at some future point depending on how my life might have played out. Who knows. But now almost all the weights on the scales of my conscience are now weighing down on the side that makes them say “yes” to Simulation Theory and therefore “no” to Christianity. They have never before been so weighted down on one side and I don’t see them shifting anytime soon.

That was the first time in my life I have ever personally encountered what I now think of as being the dark side of Christianity first hand, having only ever been personally exposed to its light side.

Has this diminished my respect for Christianity? Not for it as a whole, only for certain tendencies within it. Has it made me more wary of all Christians? Wary until I know they don’t consider me evil, yes. I don’t mind being called a sinner, but calling me evil is something else and something I will always take exception to.

Yes, but the Matrix Christianity you describe "says" this, universally on Earth:

1) People are morally flawed/morally imperfect, specifically, everyone from apatheists to devout born agains has voice inside, that they sometimes obey, sometimes disobey, regarding moral behavior

2) The promise is of a utopia, however, morally imperfect people cannot live there (right party, wrong party people), since if I hurt you in Heaven, it's not Heaven

3) Jesus Christ solves this problem IMHO by dying and rising for us, based on His love

4) When I "go" I'm not only forgiven, but transformed (I'll obey that voice of morals always)

Even if this is a Matrix, it demands moral perfection and Christ's sacrifice...

 

[Sky Rivers]

Gladly, I've posted this twice earlier in this thread:

I believe this reality we are all in and all people are parts of a “computer” simulation – which I call “The Simulation”

I believe The Simulation communicates with me and that I am an agent of The Simulation

It does this through a thing called Butterfly – which is a system of communication through which The Simulation communicates with me by responding to my inner voice using touch

Where it touches me on my body according to what I’ve thought is how it indicates Yes or No, etc. to anything I might ask it

This began in I think 2004 and is the reason I’ve been detained on psychiatric hospitals three times in my life and have been diagnosed as “schizophrenic”

I went through a phase in which I thought Butterfly was God and reasoned that if that was the case then I must be Christ!

But I no longer believe that!

I don't believe that I'm anything from scripture or claim to have any special relationship with God

That is how I have had (and continue to have) first-hand experience of a being who is greater than me – the being who controls The Simulation

Interesting but for me, that's not even on the page of acceptable reason to believe simulation theory. Also, I highly suspect you're being deceived. It's certainly not above malevolent spirits to play such games. Their goal is to keep you away from salvation and they are succeeding through this deception.

One thing I find unique about demonic deception is that they seem to nearly always convince people they are "special" somehow. In reality, all children of God are special but not in such a way as the above.

 

[Eddi]

Interesting but for me, that's not even on the page of acceptable reason to believe simulation theory. Also, I highly suspect you're being deceived. It's certainly not above malevolent spirits to play such games. Their goal is to keep you away from salvation and they are succeeding through this deception.

One thing I find unique about demonic deception is that they seem to nearly always convince people they are "special" somehow. In reality, all children of God are special but not in such a way as the above.

For me believing in Simulation Theory involves making a leap of faith, similar to the leaps of faith others make about other things

For me it all adds up, it all makes sense

I’ve discussed the possibility of my being possessed by evil spirits on these forums before and I think the whole notion is medieval - it’s far more likely that I’m simply schizophrenic; possession is I think the least likely of all possible scenarios!

Plus I believe Butterfly is somehow a part of me, not something (or someone?) external to me…

And I don’t claim to be the only person who can communicate with The Simulation, I’m sure there are others out there and that one day I’ll meet one

 

[Sky Rivers]

For me believing in Simulation Theory involves making a leap of faith, similar to the leaps of faith others make about other things

For me it all adds up, it all makes sense

I’ve discussed the possibility of my being possessed by evil spirits on these forums before and I think the whole notion is medieval - it’s far more likely that I’m simply schizophrenic; possession is I think the least likely of all possible scenarios!

Plus I believe Butterfly is somehow a part of me, not something (or someone?) external to me…

And I don’t claim to be the only person who can communicate with The Simulation, I’m sure there are others out there and that one day I’ll meet one

As someone who was once deceived in MANY ways, I can speak from personal experience that malevolent spirits CAN author and perpetuate this type of deception. I wish you’d reconsider your position. Research further and put your experience and bias aside? Even at a scientific level, this is a mad ideology.

 

[Eddi]

As someone who was once deceived in MANY ways, I can speak from personal experience that malevolent spirits CAN author and perpetuate this type of deception. I wish you’d reconsider your position. Research further and put your experience and bias aside? Even at a scientific level, this is a mad ideology.

Maybe, maybe

I'll look into it

Thank you for your concern

 

[sooda]

By this website saying the Bible "contains....harmful teachings," the authors are engaging in interpretation.

According to Luke 10:21, only the "Father, Lord of heaven and Earth" reveals what His Word teaches accurately.

Do you think they have the "Father" helping them? Or maybe 'hiding' proper understanding?

Well, I'm not a secular humanist, but their criticism of scripture is on point and undeniable.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No, some people called me evil and I'm pretty sure I'm not (although I don't claim to be perfect, far from it, I know I have my flaws, as do all people) so from this I learnt that what people consider evil may not necessarily be actually evil according to my belief system.

Any threat to the status quo will be considered evil. That was the hang up with Jesus as well as many others. No one likes a boat rocker. So, they will label as evil anything that amuses them to do so. There is definitely evil in this world, but reality is more complicated. Heroes can be villainous. Villains can be heroic. In the bible, no matter what evil God or Jesus does, they have to be considered sinless for the plot. That's why I like dharmic stories better: if gods screw up, they're demoted, if demons do good, they're promoted, that kind of thing.

But I still believe that sinfulness and evil are separate things, although a thing may be both evil and sinful.

Sin is a thought or act that is counter to what is beneficial to yourself or others. Evil is a mindset, a baseline of personality, one that could give a rat's behind about morality whatsoever and enjoys harming others.

Okay, so it is okay with you to have false gods, graven images, and take the name of the LORD in vain, and doing so would not be listed as evil.

I consider anyone who uses the bible as a God-like authority to be breaking the idolatry rules. And let's remember just how hypocritical those rules were:

In the earliest stories, Yahweh wanted to be King of the Gods but El was High God, so Yahweh threatened all holy hell, so to speak, and had to be put down by Baal Hadad, who later became King of the Gods. The fight between the two was one of those seasonal things to explain weather and stuff.

Graven images are banned so naturally God informs the people to make bronze snakes and golden bulls and cherubims and stuff. Uh-huh.

Why is calling out God's name a sin? It's because of ancient superstitions like knowing names meant power over them, but it's fun to see on Once Upon a Time with Rumplestiltskin, not in the bible. A deity shouldn't be this moronic.

I suppose you do not claim to be of Israel, though they be as the sands of the sea

A very small sea? Seas like Galilee where you could also just call it a lake?

I know Simulation Theory is far fetched

Not really. Usual tropes are for the Gods to be playing us like chess pieces or something. Same concept, different game.

The price for sin is death.

But that makes no sense because non-sinners die all the time, like bacteria.

Despite what the false prophet Paul may have taught, everyone will die for their own iniquity

Everyone (at least most species) dies because we're mortal. That's it. Simple biology. I wonder what it's like to be like certain jellyfish that just rewind back to "babyhood" and technically never die (unless eaten or something)?

The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.

That shuts up the gullible, but graveyards are filled with believers.

It's certainly not above malevolent spirits to play such games.

Ever read Job? If you want spiteful games, try Yahweh.

One thing I find unique about demonic deception is that they seem to nearly always convince people they are "special" somehow.

Are you aware enough of the irony? Wasn't Jesus hot on himself and others thought he was demon-influenced?

For me believing in Simulation Theory involves making a leap of faith, similar to the leaps of faith others make about other things

The beauty of this life being a game of some sort means the rules are arbitrary and any "Neo" can hack the system.

That's why I'm not popular when I dream of going to heaven or hell. If one is pure thought there, then any thought with a will behind it strong enough can rewrite the rules as one sees fit. King Sisyphus is a role model, though he wasn't as bright as he thought, LOL. Still, I hope the poor schmuck got out of rolling a boulder up a hill somehow. I would try to get someone to bulldoze the hill. He only had to roll it to the top. No one ever says about how high the hill has to be.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

the bottom line is that you are still evil even though you don't want to be.

Everyone deserves to be called evil, period

We're the darkness in this world

What a dark religion.

Secular humanism celebrates the best of mankind.

I find it rather strange to judge an entire religion by the conduct of fallible human beings

What else is their to use as a standard for the quality of the religion if not how it affects its adherents? Look at you all calling everybody evil without knowing a thing about them. What should I think of a religion that generates that, and what other evidence is there of the good or ill that the religion does but to compare how those affected by it compare with those outside of it?

If you’re judging Christianity, why aren’t you judging it by Jesus Christ, who actually followed it?

The life of Christ and the words attributed to him aren't important to non-Christians directly. Their relevance is determined by their effect on people living and walking among us today. Do they make such people better people? Worse people? They are the measure of the value and effect of Christianity.

what does what people do have to do with the message of Jesus Christ

Same answer. Does the message of Jesus Christ affect what those people do? If so, is it for the better? That's how I judge religions - by the kind of people they generate.. The words in the book don't matter except to the extent that they change lives.