I need to rant

[SalixIncendium]

Let's put it this way: when I know that my child adheres to, for example, nazi ideology, I will NOT be avoiding the topic. It would break my heart and would do everything I can to make him realize the error of his ways and how judgmental hatred is not a proper way to lead your life.

Even if it means yelling and throwing glasses around the room.

I could not live with myself by avoiding the topic and just letting him live his life while holding a nazi ideology.
Me entering that discussion would be a sign of my love for him.



(not that I'm comparing it to nazism, it's just a purposefully chosen extreme example to drive the point home)

There is a difference between avoiding a topic entirely and being confrontational.

Allow me to share my personal experience:

My daughter (a 22-year-old adult) does some things in life that I and my ex-wife do not agree with or feel are in her best interest. We have two entire different approaches with how we express our thoughts on these:

My ex is confrontational, telling my daughter what she should do. As a result, the spend a great deal of time arguing as a result of the drama that my ex created between them.

I approach things from sharing my own experiences and sharing what I would do in her given situation. I don't tell her what to do. It's her life and the choice is hers. More times than not, she sees things my way and changes her behaviors. Other times she doesn't. In those cases, she is aware that she will have to live with the consequences of her actions. We get along splendidly, and I don't recall the last time we had an argument or when there was any drama between us.

You mention you would do such things out of love. What do you think is a better show of love? Offering guidance and support or barking orders?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, yes. But sometimes a family can to you be so toxic, that only avoidance works.

Just cuz someone is family doesn't mean they're
the kind of people one likes. The hateful ones
can be excised.
We (3) have 2 siblings who are no longer in the
family. They never were likeable people, & one
major event precipitated going separate ways.
It's been wonderful.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can't agree that this method of argumentation would actually work on anyone with a better than third-grade education level. You may as well just resort to yelling "My house, my rules!" at the top of your lungs and hope that the person doesn't see right through your already broken glass of an "argument".

I wouldn't be the one yelling and throwing glasses though.
Well, maybe I might yell, lol.

The thing is, when it comes to my parents, wife or kids, there can be no taboo's. That to me is "sacred".
We can be diametrically opposed to one another on a certain point, yet I would not want it to be kept "hidden" or "avoided" or "unspoken".

Honestly, the idea of "well, we can't discuss that subject" when it comes to parents, wife or kids would absolutely break my heart.

It would put them on the same level as a co-worker or some mate I see at the bar.
The thought of that to me is very depressing.

 

[Bathos Logos]

Well, yes. But sometimes a family can to you be so toxic, that only avoidance works.

It's always tough even on that front too - because there will be times you'll end up feeling like you've let yourself down, and possibly everyone else after that point who ends up playing "victim" to the toxic individual.

For example, I have an uncle I haven't see in many years. But back when we did get together with him more frequently, he would constantly question the life choices (usually career-related) of other family members in extremely passive-aggressive ways that let you know he didn't respect or approve of you. Being a teen, I didn't think it my place to speak up... but now I certainly wish I had. People don't need his trash-bag of a mouth making a mockery of their lives, and maybe the more people who speak up (and had I been one of those), the more likely he'll be to keep it shut. Which helps not only his future conversation partners, but he, himself, even if he doesn't realize it.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The conflict already exists.

Does it, though?

There are many on this very forum whose views don't align with mine, and I have no conflict with anyone here.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You mention you would do such things out of love. What do you think is a better show of love? Offering guidance and support or barking orders?

Where have I have said anything about "barking orders"?

All I said was that avoiding the topics in question, just because you know it might get heated, is not a good idea imo.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Where have I have said anything about "barking orders"?

Hey, you're the one yelling and throwing glasses in the other post.

All I said was that avoiding the topics in question, just because you know it might get heated, is not a good idea imo.

And I respect your right to your opinion.

It's just not the way I roll.

 

[Fool]

My son stopped in yesterday, always love to see and visit with him. He just returned from Florida, Disneyworld.
Our of the blue he asked what I thought of Governor DeSantis and that was the beginning of the end of a lovely visit. Politically we are on the opposite sides. To makes matters worse of course the topic of abortion raised its ugly head, and all hell broke loose. My oldest daughter, who lives with us, had an abortion when she was 17. She was experiencing seizures and was on medication the doctor considered unsafe for the baby. I did not know she was pregnant. My son, who is now an evangelical, belongs to a church in which they live by the Christianity of St Paul. Jesus said he came, 'not to bring peace on earth, but division; even in one’s own household, two against three and three against two.' All this leaves me, a mother who loves all her children, in the middle.

And you are exactly where you should be. Love and respect should not be a respecter of persons. This is exactly what Jesus taught. He didn't teach that self should become self-righteous and judgemental but to judge with right judgement. Only love is right. The law is to love all as self. Unconditional love is the law. You can't serve love and trespass against your neighbor's right to autonomy.


So your son has made a choice to be an evangelical, wish him well and tell him that what god, what love has joined together let no man come between them, not jesus, paul, or governor desantis.

heaven for evangelicals seems to be a place where you love god, jesus, paul, but it seems to ignore your neighbor and brother.



best wishes in your journey, sorry you had a pothole/bump in the road.

 

[Bathos Logos]

Hey, you're the one yelling and throwing glasses in the other post.

Figured I'd chime in because I made the same mistake. Turns out that bit was in reference to the other people in the argument doing the throwing, apparently.

 

[RestlessSoul]

One does not resolve conflict by avoiding it.

No, but sometimes avoidance is better than confrontation.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's always tough even on that front too - because there will be times you'll end up feeling like you've let yourself down, and possibly everyone else after that point who ends up playing "victim" to the toxic individual.

For example, I have an uncle I haven't see in many years. But back when we did get together with him more frequently, he would constantly question the life choices (usually career-related) of other family members in extremely passive-aggressive ways that let you know he didn't respect or approve of you. Being a teen, I didn't think it my place to speak up... but now I certainly wish I had. People don't need his trash-bag of a mouth making a mockery of their lives, and maybe the more people who speak up (and had I been one of those), the more likely he'll be to keep it shut. Which helps not only his future conversation partners, but he, himself, even if he doesn't realize it.

True. But I feel like we're mixing up two different points now.
I was primarily talking about holding specific positions on specific subjects, while this is more about general behavior. Aka, being a d!ck.

But yes, even when it comes to that - when such behavior comes from parents, wife or kids, I have absolutely no problem calling it out. No matter to what kind of conflict that leads to.

At a bar, or some uncle or cousin I see once or twice every few months... I might just let it slide / ignore it in order to not let it ruin the family party. I also might not invite him next time. Unless it crosses some kind of (semi-arbitrary) red line. Then all hell might break lose.

Anyhow, I think I agree with pretty much everything you say. I just take exception with the people in my most inner circle (parents, wife, kids).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Does it, though?

Yes. Just because it isn't being talked about doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes. Just because it isn't being talked about doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You do know that a conflict is a cognitive/emotional POV?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Hey, you're the one yelling and throwing glasses in the other post.

Sure, but yelling doesn't imply ordering around.

You know, me and my wife have this idea that we don't trust couples that never fight.
To us, that means that there are things that aren't being talked bout.


But sure, to each his own. It's just not how we roll in our family. I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[Heyo]

Politics and religion are good topics to avoid in family discussions, especially when it's already known that family members have conflicting opinions.

There has never been the need to avoid discussion of anything in my family. We were raised to argue rationally and to tolerate different views.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

My son stopped in yesterday, always love to see and visit with him. He just returned from Florida, Disneyworld.
Our of the blue he asked what I thought of Governor DeSantis and that was the beginning of the end of a lovely visit. Politically we are on the opposite sides. To makes matters worse of course the topic of abortion raised its ugly head, and all hell broke loose. My oldest daughter, who lives with us, had an abortion when she was 17. She was experiencing seizures and was on medication the doctor considered unsafe for the baby. I did not know she was pregnant. My son, who is now an evangelical, belongs to a church in which they live by the Christianity of St Paul. Jesus said he came, 'not to bring peace on earth, but division; even in one’s own household, two against three and three against two.' All this leaves me, a mother who loves all her children, in the middle.

Sorry - this may be an unnecessary detail - but it sounds like your daughter took medication that she needed - and that this medication killed her unborn baby.

If that is true - I don't think any reasonable Christian would consider that to be an abortion.

Anyways - it sounds like your son is worried about you - trying to point you in the same direction he is going.

What exactly do you guys disagree on?

I'm sure you agree on far more than you disagree.

 

[firedragon]

My son stopped in yesterday, always love to see and visit with him. He just returned from Florida, Disneyworld.
Our of the blue he asked what I thought of Governor DeSantis and that was the beginning of the end of a lovely visit. Politically we are on the opposite sides. To makes matters worse of course the topic of abortion raised its ugly head, and all hell broke loose. My oldest daughter, who lives with us, had an abortion when she was 17. She was experiencing seizures and was on medication the doctor considered unsafe for the baby. I did not know she was pregnant. My son, who is now an evangelical, belongs to a church in which they live by the Christianity of St Paul. Jesus said he came, 'not to bring peace on earth, but division; even in one’s own household, two against three and three against two.' All this leaves me, a mother who loves all her children, in the middle.

You are mom. They are your children. And you will always be the rock.

What could one do? I wish you and your whole family all the peace in the world.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would tell friends and family that toxicity, incivility, and antagonism isn't welcomed in your home.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I would tell friends and family that toxicity, incivility, and antagonism isn't welcomed in your home.

I don't know if you can do that because not only are you flat out telling those people that they are those things - you are also telling them that they are unwelcome.

I don't believe her son felt like he was being toxic, uncivil or antagonistic.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't know if you can do that because not only are you flay out telling those people that they are those thing - you are also telling them that they ate unwelcome.

I don't believe her son felt like he was being toxic, uncivil or antagonistic.

If he's attacking and shaming his sister, then yes. He knew his words would be hurtful and divisive.