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Featured I need Jehovah's Witnesses feed back.Because I always think I am interpreting it right.But am wrong.

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, May 10, 2022.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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  2. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I would like to get Frank's feedback, but seldom does he give it. ;)
    Perhaps he can ask the JWs stumpers.

    If Jesus spoke of two baptisms - one by water, and one by fire, why does Paul say there is only ONE baptism? (Ephesians 4:4)

    I got this from an idea Frank gave me. ;)
     
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  3. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    What do you think the one hope is?Like I said at the top of my post.I usually interpret things wrong.:)
     
  4. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    I think the question of us having one or two baptisms.Is explained here: What Is the Baptism of Fire and Is it Even Biblical?
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Nothing wrong with being wrong. At least you can be corrected if someone knows.
    What do you think the one baptism is?

    Remember Frank, I answered you, but it meant nothing to you, because these things are not things you build on.
    If you learn the elementary things - the milk of the word, that will likely do you some good.
    You are not ready for solid food.

    However, I suspect this is not for you. That's why I am answering.

    Look at the verse...
    Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

    Read it while thinking about it.
    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Did you get it?
    No. You will if you are willing to answer questions. That's the best way to learn.
    Are you willing to answer my questions this time?
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Us? Why us? Anyway I am not even going there. Let's go elementary, and try to actually understand something beneficial.
     
  7. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    I think when it says your calling.It means what John 6:44.Means.:)
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I thought you wanted JWs feedback. Why are you giving your interpretation, which you always think is right, but is wrong?

    Do you want JWs feedback? I want to give it, but I need you to follow what I am saying. I don't want to be just wasting time. That okay with you?
     
  9. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Yes.That is ok with me.:)
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Thank you.
    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Paul is addressing Christians in the first century congregation.
    The first century Christian all have the heavenly hope.

    What if this calling is their heavenly calling?
    You used that scripture in your other thread.

    Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    So let's read the text with that understanding.
    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye - holy brethren, are called in one hope of your calling - the heavenly calling;

    With that understand, Paul would be addressing only the holy brothers, who are the saints, who number 144,000. The 144,000 has only one hope. The heavenly calling is that one hope of their calling.

    Is that understandable to you, and is it something you can possibly accept?
     
  11. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Yes.:)
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    That was quite a speedy response. Are you sure you understand it? Could you relate it in your own words?
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If there is one Spirit, why do JWs say there is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Chris, 2 Spirits?

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    Luke 3:16-17 He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.’Luke 3:15-17

    Is the Great Crown baptised with the Spirit as John the Baptist said?
    Is the Great Crowd led by the Spirit and so gain the fruits of the Spirit?
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I feel like Jesus at this point.
    (Mark 8:11, 12) 11 Here the Pharisees came out and started disputing with him, seeking from him a sign from heaven, to put him to the test. 12 So he groaned deeply with his spirit, and said. . .

    Brian, if you notice, the above, there are many hopes, not just one, but the scripture focuses on one in particular, and refers to that... specifically.

    There is more than one baptism, but the scripture focuses on the one particularly related to the anointed, and refers to that.

    There is more than one god, but Paul specifies the one true God.

    There is more than one lord, but Paul zeros in on the Lord of lords relative to the Lord God, but above all others

    There is the spirit that we should worship God with. John 4:24
    There is the spirit that God put in man, which keeps him alive. Job 27:3; Job 34:14
    There is the spirit of beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19
    There is the spirit of Christ - his disposition. Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19; John 11:33-38
    There is the spirit man shows - his disposition... his emotions Acts 18:25; 2 Corinthians 2:13; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 2:2
    There are demonic spirits. Acts 8:7; Acts 16:16
    There is the spirit God shows - his disposition, and emotions.
    There are the spirit sons of God.
    There is God's holy spirit.

    There are many spirits, but in that scripture, Paul focuses on the spirit with which they were sealed.
    In the same way, he refers to the one body of Christ - the anointed... even though there are many bodies. 1 Corinthians 12:13

    The context matters, Paul is reminding the holy brothers of the things related to their inheritance.
    (Ephesians 4:1-3) 1 Therefore I, the prisoner in the Lord, appeal to you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all humility and mildness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, 3 earnestly endeavoring to maintain the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace.

    Sigh
    (John 8:25) Therefore they began to say to him: “Who are you?” Jesus said to them: “Why am I even speaking to YOU at all?

    Is the Great Crown baptized with the Spirit as John the Baptist said?
    No. The great crowd is baptized with the baptism Jesus said. Matthew 28:19
    The baptism of John was for the Israelites who needed to repent of their sins against God. John prepared the way. Once the lamb of God arrived, those people were directed to Jesus.

    (Acts 19:1-5) 1 ...There he found some disciples 2 and said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when you became believers?” They replied to him: “Why, we have never heard that there is a holy spirit.” 3 So he said: “In what, then, were you baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism in symbol of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Is the Great Crowd led by the Spirit and so gain the fruits of the Spirit?
    All of God's people must allow God's holy spirit to influence their life. They must have Christ's spirit.

    The annointed were specifically being addressed in Romans 8
    (Romans 8:1-8) 1 Therefore, those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. 2 For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemning sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit. 6 For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; 7 because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.

    Thus though the great crowd must put the flesh to death by the spirit, and live by the spirit, thereby cultivating the fruitage of the spirit, they are not being told that they are sons of God, and joint heirs with Christ.

    Matthew 22:18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites?
    The problem with false religion, and its false teachers, is that you guys insist on going to heaven, as though declaring, and insisting that you go, will actually get you there.
    You can't demand your way into heaven. So refusing to accept God's arrangement, only put you at enmity with him. It doesn't put you in favor with him.

    The fact is, God chose a little flock to go to heaven and rule with Christ. Rule what? The earth, and those who will live on it. The little flock are said to number 144,000.
    Even if that number were not literal - which it is (Rev. 14:1-4), it still would be a significantly small number compared to the multitude that is unnumbered.

    The great multitude is shepherded to streams of water of life, and God wipes out their tears and sorrow, and death is no more. So I really don't understand why you and billions of people would let wicked preachers fill your head with that "When we all get to heaven" song... playing on your emotions, so that you are not happy with the prospect of living on a new earth, under righteous rule, in peace forever.
    Can you explain that to me?
     
  15. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    This helped me:
    Paul is addressing Christians in the first century congregation.
    The first century Christian all have the heavenly hope.:)
     
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  16. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Good. I really appreciate that Frank. [​IMG]
    So can I ask then would you say that if the ones who have the heavenly calling is a small number (Luke 12:32; Revelation 7:4; Revelation 14:1-3), then the vast majority of faithful ones would have another hope?

    Do you find this hope mentioned in the below scriptures, to be a bad one?
    (Revelation 7:15-17) 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

    (Revelation 21:3-4) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    Matthew 5:5
    “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
    (Psalm 37:10, 11) 10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.


    What do you find to be good about that hope?
     
  17. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    I find the hope in Revelation 7:15-17.To be a good one.

    It shows God is good to those who believe in him.And rewards his followers at the end.:)
     
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  18. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I like that.
    So you have no problem that millions of people are rewarded with everlasting life on a renewed paradise earth, whereas a few thousand live in heaven ruling over the earth. God is good.
    I second that.

    Hard to figure though, why billions of "Christians" object to God's purpose.
    Maybe it's because they don't understand that the only reason persons got called to heaven was to rule with Christ, and serve as priests.

    That's another thing that shows God's love, since they would be able to understand and sympathize with our weaknesses.
    Thanks Frank. :)

    Was your question cleared then? Do you understand the two hopes, and how Ephesians 4:4 relates to just one - the heavenly one?
     
    #18 nPeace, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  19. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Yes.:)
     
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  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    Which Spirit were they baptised into the one body with? A Christian has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ in them. Are they one Spirit or two?

    Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

    You love feeling like Jesus.

    Yes the Spirit was given after Jesus was resurrected.
    Is the baptism of Matthew 28:19 different from the one in which a Christian is given the Spirit of God? If so, why?

    God's Spirit can influence lives in many ways and an atheist can have his life influenced by God's Spirit. But is the Great Crowd led by the Spirit as in:
    Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
    9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
    Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
    And really being a Christian included living like a Christian and following the Lord, or we will probably be rejected by Him, so works are very important for not just JWs. But of course the salvation is through faith and love and the works of love is that faith at work. It is not the works that save us or we would be earning our own salvation, which we cannot do.

    How do you kill the deeds of the flesh without the Spirit of God in you and giving you strength to do that and guiding you?

    A possibility is that the 144000 is a totally symbolic number. 12x12x1000. Looks pretty symbolic of all Christians.
    Certainly there is nothing to definitely connect the "little flock" of the gospels with the 144000 except the say so of your teachers.
    A large part of the teachings of the JWs is based on very iffy interpretation of prophecy and even to the extent that it changes the gospel message for the great crowd on the say so of a hand full of men.

    Because we believe all Christians are baptised into Christ and receive the Spirit and are part of the New Covenant and are in the Kingdom of God as citizens of that Kingdom, we see no problem with going to heaven. But of course the scriptures tell us that the New Jerusalem is coming down to earth and God and the Lamb will be in it. It is like heaven is going to be on earth. The OT tells us that God has chosen Jerusalem/Zion to live in forever. I don't know what the 144000 are going to do in heaven alone.
    The way it looks to me is that New Jerusalem is going to be where all Christians call home and the rest of the New Earth is going to be where the nations call home.
     
    #20 Brian2, May 12, 2022
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
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