1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

I like how the Old Testament closes

Discussion in 'Sacred Texts' started by whirlingmerc, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +887
    Religion:
    Christian
    • Like Like x 1
  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    22,146
    Ratings:
    +15,149
    Religion:
    atheist
    Hmm...

    A son honors his father,
    And a servant his master.
    If then I am the Father,
    Where is my honor?
    And if I am a Master,
    Where is My reverence?

    I wouldn't have seen 'love' as the central theme. But maybe it's just the burning oven thing that seems ominous.
     
  3. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,083
    Ratings:
    +1,424
    Religion:
    Kashmir Shaivism (Trika)
    The Old Testament doesn't have a Hell, that's a Christian concept that Jesus first introduced in the Gospels. Taken on it's own, the OT just has Sheol, or the grave. There's a realm of heaven, thought to be beyond the sky, but it's not a place the dead go as far as I'm aware. This is based on my understanding of Judaism and the OT, I might be mistaken.
     
  4. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    22,146
    Ratings:
    +15,149
    Religion:
    atheist
    Possibly depends how literally you want to read 4:1
     
  5. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5,083
    Ratings:
    +2,265
    Religion:
    Eastern Orthodox Christian
    It depends on how much stock you put into Enochian literature. The concept of an everlasting Hell certainly predates Christianity in that regard (shows up in the Book of Enoch). Whether it was ever a mainstream Jewish belief is another matter entirely.
     
  6. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,767
    Ratings:
    +298
    Religion:
    Christian--Presbyterian
    Most of the minor prophets are a good news/bad news prophecy, but they usually end with some good news. I especially like the last 3 verses of of Habakkuk. IMO that is one of the strongest statements of faith in God in the whol Bible.

    Thanks for the reminder.
     
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,888
    Ratings:
    +3,734
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It is only in the Christian Bible that the "Old Testament" closes with Malachi, a book of prophecy which Christians believe anticipates the coming of Jesus. In Judaism, the Tanakh closes with Chronicles, where the Jews come back from captivity and rebuild the Temple and read the Torah -- a time of triumph for Israel and of God's forgiveness. Very big difference.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,650
    Ratings:
    +8,307
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    According to my sources, 2 Chronicles was completed by Ezra in 460 BCE, whereas Malachi was completed in 443 BCE. So doesn't that Malachi the last book of the Hebrew scriptures? Malachi wasn't exactly subtle in his straight talk about Israel's shortcomings. The dialogue is an interesting read as Israel seems to be unaware of their misdemeanors....Many times Malachi makes an accusation against them, but the Jews respond like they never did what he said they did....he reminds them of their actions and how they are guilty.

    Malachi finishes with.....
    "Lo, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord, כגהִנֵּ֚ה אָֽנֹכִי֙ שֹׁלֵ֣חַ לָכֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת אֵֽלִיָּ֣ה הַנָּבִ֑יא לִפְנֵ֗י בּוֹא י֣וֹם יְהֹוָ֔ה הַגָּד֖וֹל וְהַנּוֹרָֽא:
    24 that he may turn the heart of the fathers back through the children, and the heart of the children back through their fathers-lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction. כדוְהֵשִׁ֚יב לֵֽב־אָבוֹת֙ עַל־בָּנִ֔ים וְלֵ֥ב בָּנִ֖ים עַל־אֲבוֹתָ֑ם פֶּן־אָב֕וֹא וְהִכֵּיתִ֥י אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ חֵֽרֶם:"
    (Malachi 3:3-18)
    Malachi - Chapter 3

    How do you understand those words?
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,888
    Ratings:
    +3,734
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The reason that Chronicles is the last book of the Tanakh is because the WRITINGS were added after the Prophets. Malachi is one of the Prophets, and Chronicles is one of the writings. Heck, Chronicles wasn't even part of the Tanakh when Jesus walked the earth. He only admitted "Moses and the Prophets" and in another place "Moses, the Prophets, and the psalms."

    The passage from Malachi you quote describes one of the many comings of Elijah. It refers to the day of the Lord, which is a day in the future when justice will triumph and the wicked will be judged.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,650
    Ratings:
    +8,307
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    The Hebrew Scriptures were all Jesus had. Because of the record that the Jewish leaders had left for themselves over hundreds of years, I have every reason to believe Jesus rather than the corrupt leaders he had to deal with. The words of John the Baptizer whom the Jewish people regarded as a prophet, ring true today as they did back then....

    "Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:9-10)

    Israel has always prided itself on their descent from Abraham, but as John said being sons of Abraham is of no benefit if you don't obey the teachings of Abraham's God. Israel never has....her track record is appalling as you already know. God's covenant with Israel was conditional. "If" they kept their part of the bargain, "then" and only then, God would keep his.....they didn't, so he didn't.

    Jesus said that their conduct warranted God's abandonment. That he would choose a new "Israel".....one that would obey his commands. The "new covenant" was established with the followers of Jesus Christ, providing a "spiritual Israel" made up of the Jewish disciples of Jesus first, (a remnant who returned to true worship as foretold) and the rest made up of people of the nations who are going to be blessed because of the sacrificial course of Jesus the Christ....the true Messiah....the seed of Abraham.

    We believe that John the Baptist was the "Elijah" mentioned in Malachi.

    In Matthew 17:10-13 it says.....
    "However, the disciples put the question to him: “Why, then, do the scribes say that E·liʹjah must come first?” 11 In reply he said: “E·liʹjah is indeed coming and will restore all things. 12 However, I say to you that E·liʹjah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did whatever they wanted with him. In this way also, the Son of man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist."

    I know how hard it must be to alter the things that have been taught to you from the beginning, but to me Israel have never measured up to God's expectations of them, and he abandoned them to become one of the nations....in turmoil and filled with bloodshed just like all the rest.


    Can you not see what is, rather than what you would like it to be? The Messiah has come and is about to return to bring his Kingdom to the world of those he has redeemed with his blood.....I would like to think that you will be among them.
     
    #10 Deeje, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  11. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    42,876
    Ratings:
    +18,920
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    I would certainly agree.

    The Old Testament and New Testament are clearly not the same thing. There's little doubt the New Testament was just tacked to the Old Testament with its own type of unique interpretation that is Christianity.
     
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +887
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes... one might look at that as a picture of 'the great commission" Jesus ecapitulating the story.
    The layout of the Jewish Bible is fascinating with Ruth after Proverbs 31 and Esther after Lamentations
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,888
    Ratings:
    +3,734
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The "Great Commission" is not in theTanakh.
    Your points about Esther and Ruth are correct, but I'm not sure what point you are making.

    Christians need to understand that your entire Christian "Old Testament" is in a different order. Folks might want to check out table of contents for a Tanakh just out of curiousity. Hebrew - English Bible by Books / Mechon-Mamre BTW, I made a mistake, it's not Chronicles that's the last book, but Ezra-Nehemiah, which deals with coming back into the Land after Captivity (I did get that part right! :) )
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,582
    Ratings:
    +3,652
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Or, perhaps you were right the first time. Next time you're in shul ask your rabbi which is the last book in the Tanakh. Depending on your rabbi's answer you can ask why you saw a list with the books of Ketuvim in a different order.

    You do know, I assume, that the website you listed uses the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation - because it is in the public domain - which has its own issues.
     
  15. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +887
    Religion:
    Christian
    Christians would feel that the great commission is pictured and portended by the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple
    and yes... some orderings or the Jewish Bible end that way... some don't but I do like to see how the carious Jewish traditions order the books and which books are read with which festivals

    I like how the praiseworthy things of the God of Jacob and the same as the job description of the messiah ( comparing Psalm 146 to Isaiah 61 and as read by Jesus in Luke 4)
    The Doxological Coda to Psalms
     
    #15 whirlingmerc, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,888
    Ratings:
    +3,734
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Thank you. It's nice to know I wasn't going nuts and remembering things wrong. Yes, I know its the JPS. Personally I own the Stone Tanakh, but its not available online. I'm also lazy--it's easier for me to google something than get off my tuchas and pull down the volume.
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,888
    Ratings:
    +3,734
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The difference between you as a Christian and I as a Jew is that you believe Isaiah 61 to be a messianic prophecy, and I simply think it is Isaiah speaking about himself (the most obvious way to read it). I find that Christians are ever and always making passages out to be messianic prophecies that have obvious meanings that are quite ordinary. But read it whatever way you wish. It is not my intention to undermine your faith.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +887
    Religion:
    Christian
    True... additionally Jesus read Isaiah 61 as applying to himself ... and so I am being consistent
    but I do see it as a continuation of the thoughts expressed and work seen in Isaiah 57:15 and Isaiah 59:15
     
  19. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,358
    Ratings:
    +453
    Religion:
    Catholic
    In the old Testament, Satan is allowed in heaven and is a special councilor to God. In the book of Job, for example, God allows Satan to set the conditions to test the faith of Job. God gave Satan the power to challenge God. In the old testament, Satan is in charge of the earth. This is sanctioned by God, with Satan the CEO in charge of the earth operation. Satan has the ear of God and has control over day to day things. There is no hell, since Satan is allowed in heaven; heaven and hell merged together.

    It is not until Revelations that Satan is thrown from heaven. At this point, Satan is fired as CEO, which means if you followed him, now, you are no longer compliant with company policies. A distinction appears between sanctioned and unsanctioned behavior. In my humble opinion, what is often attributed to God of the old Testament, is Satan acting on God's behalf as the CEO of earth.

    An analogy, in modern times, of this distinction, is murder. If one kills someone, but they are not in their right mind, it is considered different from someone who premeditates and then kills. In the old testament, the people were not in their right mind, so to speak, but where acting on impulse that may have been induced by Satan, who was condoned by God as CEO. After Satan is thrown from heaven, the insanity defense is no longer appropriate, and each person has to accept responsibility for actions.

    Just as the temporarily insane person will never see the electric chair; old testament, the old testament person does not go to hell. The willful person, of the new Testament, who does the same thing, will see the chair; hell. Although, many states have done way with the death penalty, which is loosely analogous to trying to put Satan back into heaven; old way where one is less accountability.
     
  20. GoodbyeDave

    GoodbyeDave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,734
    Ratings:
    +1,560
    Religion:
    Hellenic Polytheist
    My OT ends
    Even I can't quarrel with that!

    (For the uninitiated, that's the end of Maccabees II)
     
Loading...