I know god doesn't exist?

[Arthur P. Dent]

Thank you for your reply. I suspect on several points we are arguing semantics, but what the hell... I have some time to kill and I love exercising my grey matter

IMO, the only people who have a burden of proof are people who are trying to convince others of their position. If I don't care whether I'm believed, I have no obligation to defend any claim I make.

100%! But why even make a definitive statement if you aren't trying to sway someone? I have always maintained that if theists kept their BS to themselves and weren't trying to force it onto others, the "theist/atheist" debate would be MUCH smaller to the point of irrelevance. My entire "secular moral" code has been condensed to 3 key points. 1) Don't harm self, 2) Don't harm others, 3) Don't be a deliberate douche. Beyond that... enjoy the hell out of life and remember, "life is too serious to take seriously"

Isn't "exceedingly low probability" the same reason you don't think your car is green?

possibility that some vandal painted your car green while you weren't watching it and you'll only find out the next time you look at it.

Exactly! I know when I left my car last night it was blue. I have definitive definitions of "blue" and "green" based on wavelength and point of reference. Now... could some ******* have painted my car or a distant relative have left me a green car that I am unaware of? ABSOLUTELY!!!! But in my 50+ years that has never happened so I think, <ehem>, the *probability* is exceedingly low.

You brought up solipsism

Yes I did... but *only* to point out it is a perpetual problem in Philosophy and to state that we have to agree and ASSUME what reality is in order to have a meaningful Socratic Discussion.

And gifts and inheritance also aren't extraordinary: maybe a relative has left you a car, but you haven't been notified yet.

Answered Aboive

My point in all this is that there's quite a bit of uncertainty around all sorts of claims.

Emmm..... There is less uncertainty around some claims than others. "The sun will rise tomorrow" is a claim that may not come true, but the fact that based on the past umpteen *billion* years, the likelihood is more "certain". Whereas, "I will sprout wings overnight and be able to fly like a bird tomorrow" is a MUCH LESS certain as it has NEVER happened in history that we are aware of.

One of the above claims is an "ordinary" claim... "The sun will rise tomorrow"
One of the claims is "extraordinary"... "I will sprout wings...."

And it doesn't take a braniac to determine which category an "Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent, Omnisapient, Omnitemproal, Transcendent" entity belongs.

That was my point.

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

I believe your belief about God has no basis.

Huh?!?! My only "belief" about god is that the standard theistic model has not been proven. PERIOD!

I am open however! If you have something that resembles "Logic, Reason &/or Evidence" to suggest your god exists, I am all ears.

Atheism is simply a reply to the claims of theism, namely, "we don't believe you as you have failed to prove your claim ['god exists]'

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

I don't know how your two comments connect. I've never heard any theist give evidence outside his personal experience (i.e. I can testify...). What objective evidence would there be for god and why would theist try to prove there is when it's not based on that?

Agree 100%. As to... \\"I watched Nebraska lose to Iowa in football Friday. If you didn't watch it or see the score my experience is still evidence to you that it happened."\\ I didn't watch the game (I'm an SEC fan... go Gators!) so at first blush, I have no reason to doubt you that Iowa won. Why?!? First, it's an "ordinary" claim. I know CFB exists... further that it wouldn't be unusual for Iowa and Nebraska to play each other and with that, you automatically have a 50% chance of being correct! Second, whether or not you are lying, it doesn't effect me in the SLIGHTEST! You're not trying to force some outdated biblical belief down my throat! Lastly, if I so chose, I could easily do research to determine the veracity of your claim.

Now, let's look at a theist "Personal experience" of "God". Unless you define god into existence, "i.e. 'I think god is the sum total of energy in the universe.', 'I think god is just pure love.'" or some other nonsense that I have heard time and again, the *standard* god most theist talk about is the "omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnisapient, omnitemporal, transcendent" entity. Anyone of those six terms are extraordinary in of themselves let alone strung together!!!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and "a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

As Unveiled Artist pointed out, every discussion I have had with theists to date about their reason for believing circles back to "personal experience" and just plain "faith". And I am sorry, but NEITHER of those reasons are justifiable as *evidence*.

Name ANY point that I cannot believe just based on "faith" alone!!! You can't (please prove me wrong). As to "personal experience"... Here is the kicker... If you say you have *experienced* god and he reached out and talked to you and touched your heart... I will most likely believe you!!!! But here's the catch.... the human brain is notoriously easy to trick and fool! History is rife with all kinds of personal experiences from Jesus to Marshall Applewhite! So please tell me how YOUR personal belief should be believed over anyone else's "personal beliefs" that differ from yours.

 

[Bird123]

Are we allowed to say ' I ' know god doesn't exist?
Is that the same as claiming that he does not as fact rather than opinion?

If I know god doesn't exists why would I (and anyone who knows god exists or doesn't exist) say it as an opinion if the word 'I' dictates what they say is a fact is only applicable to the person who said it?

Take as ye will. Knowledge versus opinion versus belief versus whatever the case may be.

Freedom of speech allows one to say anything whether what one says is accurate or not.

If one repeats saying a belief long enough, that belief will seem true regardless of whether it is actually true or not.

I can not go along with anyone saying God does not exist as a fact. This is a very large universe. Has the person who is searching for God really searched everywhere?? I think not.

Religion and society has conditioned people to accept or reject things as true or not. Burden of Proof rests on the one who seeks the truth. Discovering real truth is much more than accepting or rejecting then repeating what one believes to be the truth.

If one is satisfied with mere belief, accept and reject what you will. I could never be satisfied with mere belief. To do so would be to wander from true reality. For one who must know, beliefs merely point a direction by which one might search for the real truth.

Case in point: What freezes quicker cold water or hot water? I have heard people state as a fact both freezes quicker depending on what a person believes. Do I pick one then repeat to everyone my belief is a fact? Of course not. I am one who needs to know.

I got an ice machine and filled one tray with cold water and one with hot water to see which would freeze quicker. I then repeated the experiment swapping trays. Now the cold water was in the tray the hot water was in on the last test. The hot water was in the tray the cold water was in. This made the test equal.

As a fact, which froze quicker?? Cold water froze quicker in both tests but not by much. You hot water people can choose to live in your beliefs and dream worlds but it is not true reality. In the end one will discover Reality will be better.

Discovery takes Work!! On the other hand, the Results are so much better. For one who really cares and must know the Real Truth, Discovery is the only way.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

OK... So you're basing your belief on god via hear-say?!? How does one ascertain THAT particular prophet was authentic yet ALL the other various prophets throughout history from before Jesus to Marshall Applewhite were FALSE prophets?!?

What a Messenger of God reveals is not hearsay. That is how God communicates to man.

You do not have to look at every man who claimed to be a prophet/Messenger of God because that would be impossible.
Jesus told us how we differentiate a true prophet from a false prophet:

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

I agree, it's a eloquent verse, but the Bible, Koran and MANY other works contains just as eloquent quotes. You previously stated your belief was NOT based on Personal Experience / Personal Faith but rather "Evidence". I am hoping you have something more concrete else I suspect we may have different definitions of "evidence".

Respectfully.... Arthur

You just raised a very valid point. As a Baha'i who believes that there is only one God and many Messengers, all of whom revealed scriptures, I believe that verses in the Bible, Koran and MANY other works are just as true as what Baha'u'llah revealed, and many are even more eloquent..

Maybe we have different definitions of evidence, but I can only present the evidence I have. The claims of Baha'u'llah and the evidence that supports those claims was posted on the other thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

What a Messenger of God reveals is not hearsay. That is how God communicates to man.

Ummm.... How do we KNOW he is a messenger from god other than what he (or she) claims? Anyone can claim anything hence the relevance of the quote, "a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

You do not have to look at every man who claimed to be a prophet/Messenger of God because that would be impossible.

Why not?!? By what metric should we use to ascertain the "true" prophets from the "false" prophets? Or do we just wait for a "prophet" to echo what we already believe or want to believe and then stop listening to others?!? That does not seem to be intellectually honest to me.

Jesus told us how we differentiate a true prophet from a false prophet:

Hypothetically yes. According to the bible. The BIBLE. The anthology of 66 to 73 short stories (depending on the version of the bible you written by many anonymous authors and translated and re-translated numerous times down throughout history with known mistake and misquotes. It is the epitome of folly to use the bible as the source of the claims AND the "proof" of the claims!

 

[Trailblazer]

Ummm.... How do we KNOW he is a messenger from god other than what he (or she) claims? Anyone can claim anything hence the relevance of the quote, "a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

I already pointed you to the evidence.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Why not?!? By what metric should we use to ascertain the "true" prophets from the "false" prophets? Or do we just wait for a "prophet" to echo what we already believe or want to believe and then stop listening to others?!? That does not seem to be intellectually honest to me.

Why not? Because it would be impossible to look at every man who claimed to be a prophet. It is also unnecessary if we use a set of criteria as to what would constitute a true prophet and follow that criteria.

Hypothetically yes. According to the bible. The BIBLE. The anthology of 66 to 73 short stories (depending on the version of the bible you written by many anonymous authors and translated and re-translated numerous times down throughout history with known mistake and misquotes. It is the epitome of folly to use the bible as the source of the claims AND the "proof" of the claims!

No, not only according to the Bible, according to common sense: By their fruits you shall know them.
Of course there is more to it than that, which is why there is other evidence.

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

I looked at the "evidence" link you provided and found it exceedingly underwhelming. The vast majority of the "evidence" is just *claims" made by Baha'u'llah to which I say, So What?!? Claims are EASY! Watch...

I, personally, created the entire universe and everything that you see in it 42 minutes ago. I placed all your memories and beliefs in your head.

Now... Please prove me to be wrong.

SEE HOW EASY CLAIMS ARE!!!

It the providing for the evidence for said claims that's the tricky part.

You also alluded to prophecies have been debunked time and again. I asked for you to present your MOST ARDENT prophesy so we call look at and discuss accordingly.

With all that said. You seem like a nice guy and as far as I know aren't forcing your unsubstantiated beliefs onto anyone and aren't harming your self so I have no issues with your beliefs but find ZERO reasons to believe your claims. You mentioned \\"which is why there is other evidence."\\ and I'll ask once again for your MOST COMPELLING piece of evidence so we can start there.



If I have missed something, I am eager to learn.

 

[ppp]

Burden of Proof rests on the one who seeks the truth.

False. Burden of proof rest on the person claiming to know the truth.

 

[Bird123]

False. Burden of proof rest on the person claiming to know the truth.

Burden of proof would be necessary if the person claiming the truth was trying to get you to Believe. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the one who seeks truth to Discover if it is truth.

To do it any other way would be to value Beliefs above the Truth.

Religion and society have been teaching people to value Beliefs above all else. I see this as a Big Mistake in Thinking.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

I looked at the "evidence" link you provided and found it exceedingly underwhelming. The vast majority of the "evidence" is just *claims" made by Baha'u'llah to which I say, So What?!? Claims are EASY! Watch...

NONE of the evidence on that list was claims made by Baha'u'llah. A claim is not evidence and I would never present it as such.

It the providing for the evidence for said claims that's the tricky part.

I provided what I consider evidence and what Baha'u'llah told us to look at. If you do not understand WHY that is evidence, just ask.

You also alluded to prophecies have been debunked time and again. I asked for you to present your MOST ARDENT prophesy so we call look at and discuss accordingly.

I never heard you ask me for my most ardent prophecy, but now that you mentioned it I will present one in a separate post that I consider very compelling since it is so specific. Please bear in mind that one has to look at all the prophecies, not just one, but obviously I cannot post all of them and how they were fulfilled. If you want to read about them you can read the book Thief in the Night by William Sears

With all that said. You seem like a nice guy and as far as I know aren't forcing your unsubstantiated beliefs onto anyone and aren't harming your self so I have no issues with your beliefs but find ZERO reasons to believe your claims. You mentioned \\"which is why there is other evidence."\\ and I'll ask once again for your MOST COMPELLING piece of evidence so we can start there.

If I have missed something, I am eager to learn.

I think what you missed is that claims are NOT evidence of anything at all! That is why on that other thread the claims were listed first and then the evidence that supports the claims was listed separately.

I told you before that what is compelling to me will not necessarily be compelling to you, since we are very different people. For me personally, the Baha'i Writings, and particularly the Writings of Baha'u'llah, are the most compelling pieces of evidence. They can be found in the Baha’i Reference Library:

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Baha’i Reference Library (old version)

Baha’i Reference Library (new version, downloadable)

 

[Trailblazer]

Burden of proof would be necessary if the person claiming the truth was trying to get you to Believe. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the one who seeks truth to Discover if it is truth.

That's true.

 

[Trailblazer]

You also alluded to prophecies have been debunked time and again. I asked for you to present your MOST ARDENT prophesy so we call look at and discuss accordingly.

There are so many prophecies but Micah 7:12 is a good one.

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

(From: William Sears, Thief in the Night)

Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

 

[ppp]

Burden of proof would be necessary if the person claiming the truth was trying to get you to Believe.

Which is almost always the case. Often the religious try to be canny and dodge that responsibility by claiming that they are not making claims if they don't say the words "I claim", or if they start by saying "I believe" But as we both know, that is just a little duplicity on their part.

To do it any other way would be to value Beliefs above the Truth.

That is false.

 

[Bird123]

Which is almost always the case. Often the religious try to be canny and dodge that responsibility by claiming that they are not making claims if they don't say the words "I claim", or if they start by saying "I believe" But as we both know, that is just a little duplicity on their part.


That is false.

What would ever really be Discovered if everyone depended on others to supply the answers?? If one really cares about the Real Truth, one will do what it takes to Discover that truth regardless of the claims or beliefs of others. Claims and beliefs merely point the direction of the search. That burden of proof rests on the one who cares enough to seek.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[ppp]

What would ever really be Discovered if everyone depended on others to supply the answers?? If one really cares about the Real Truth, one will do what it takes to Discover that truth regardless of the claims or beliefs of others. Claims and beliefs merely point the direction of the search. That burden of proof rests on the one who cares enough to seek.

Twaddle.

When you, Bird123, say that you believe X, the only [potentially] interesting question is how do you personally define X, and why do you believe X. If you cannot answer that, then what you say is incoherent and not worth pursuing. Your trying to to tie that incoherency to "real truth" is a scam. And a lazy one at that.

 

[Bird123]

Twaddle.

When you, Bird123, say that you believe X, the only [potentially] interesting question is how do you personally define X, and why do you believe X. If you cannot answer that, then what you say is incoherent and not worth pursuing. Your trying to to tie that incoherency to "real truth" is a scam. And a lazy one at that.

I place Truth in the world. What anyone decides to do with Truth is entirely up to them. I merely point for those who seek. Each person's journey is their own. I do not want people to believe. I want them to Discover.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[ppp]

I place Truth in the world.

I bring truth into the word. You are a Deceiver..

 

[Bird123]

I bring truth into the word. You are a Deceiver..

I am the deceiver???? To what end??

 

[ppp]

I am the deceiver???? To what end??

To your own dark ends, of course. It is Truth, though you would deny it. I can only sow you the Truth. What you decide to do with the Truth is up to you.