I just realized something - I DON'T want the US government involved with my "healthcare"

[T-Dawg]

Previously, I had believed that everyone had a right to good healthcare. I still do. I also believed previously that socialized healthcare (or whatever the liberals call their plan) was a decent idea. Naturally, I liked the idea of everybody having access to healthcare.

Then I remembered who would be providing the healthcare: The US Government. The same government that used 9/11 as an excuse to invade a country for oil (and that may have actually caused 9/11 themselves). The same government that advocates big business, imperialism, and propaganda - things I don't like. The same government (and the same president, in this case) that gave a "bailout" to huge, powerful, financially irresponsible CEOs.

Now, I hate corporate greed and the business of profiting off of another's suffering (the healthcare we have now), but I fear we may be trading one evil for another. Also of note is that the government seems to destroy everything it gets it's hands on - the two examples that popped up in my head were the postal service and the public schools. Both are woefully inefficient (albeit cheaper) compared to their private counterparts. But then, I realize that healthcare is not quite like either mail or education - it makes sense to charge a man to deliver him a package or to teach him something; it is morally corrupt for a man to charge someone in great pain for a simple medical procedure that would save his life, especially since the promised procedures aren't even provided if the patient has "pre-existing conditions." The healthcare system we have now is all wrong. But again, I fear we may be trading one evil for another. If the government is allowed to administer healthcare, it would have the power to deny healthcare to those that oppose it's policies (think of what the republicans could do with this...). I also don't see why the government would be any less profit-obsessed than the healthcare providers we have now. Our politicians do seem to be addicted to money, you know. It would have the power to force people to take medicines that they don't agree with taking - which brings me to the article that started this thought process:
Massachusetts Senate pass bill 2028: Quarantine or $1000 a day fine for refusing the vaccine , page 1

Straight from the government's mouth (watch the video) - they will be able to fine you 1000$ PER DAY that you refuse to take the vaccine, and they will be able to "quarantine" you "somewhere" and you might also get jailed for 30 days (I think that's what it was). Now, in case you didn't realize, there's a lot of controversy over this whole swine flu thing that you can read about on ATS (they have a whole section on it. I would give the link but I'm not sure if the mods would consider that to be "advertising another forum." It should be pretty easy to find, anyway.). The fact that they're hastily forcing people to take a questionable vaccine for a disease that's barely killed anyone is suspicious to me.

Yes, socialized healthcare works very well in Europe and Canada, but Europe and Canada are not controlled by power-hungry, corrupt, conspiracy-creating politicians, are they? When I factor in the untrustworthiness of the American government, it really makes me think twice about putting socialized healthcare here.

I really need to get the heck out of this country... I need more time... I won't be out of college for two years... two years... America will have cracked down on emmigration by then, if they haven't already...

 

[tumbleweed41]

TAL,
You do not need to worry,
The current plan does not require you to participate.
You are free to carry your own insurance, rather than the governments.
BTW, it is a Government insurance plan, like Medicaid and Medicare, only available to everyone, not Socialized Medicine.

 

[T-Dawg]

TAL,You do not need to worry,The current plan does not require you to participate.You are free to carry your own insurance, rather than the governments.BTW, it is a Government insurance plan, like Medicaid and Medicare, only available to everyone, not Socialized Medicine.

The current plan doesn't require participation, to my knowledge, but what of the plans after it? How far are we going to go?

And if it's voluntary, why are they forcing the swine flu vaccinations? (This is probably separate from the healthcare plan, but it's still related to government controlled health)


EDIT: Uh, this might be of interest to those concerned with the swine flu...
WHO Admits to Releasing Pandemic Virus into Population via 'Mock-Up' Vaccines, page 1

 

[tumbleweed41]

By "they" you mean the State of Massachusetts. And it is an effort to prevent a pandemic, one that kills the very young and the very old.

 

[3.14]

its basicly very simpel, they lay the bill out now just in case, there are always some nutters who think that if there going down its best to bring as many down with them. and this bill allows them to prevent people from activly speading a virus (if only they could have done that with hiv etc)

 

[T-Dawg]

By "they" you mean the State of Massachusetts.

Fair enough, although I think that if one state can get this done so easily, the others will too (remember, it was a unanimous vote).

And it is an effort to prevent a pandemic, one that kills the very young and the very old.

It's also the perfect excuse to dispense untested vaccines (which the WHO has been doing; see the link I edited into my previous post), and another step towards totaltarianism. If they had listed "Get the heck out of the country" as an option for people who didn't want to take the shot, it wouldn't be so bad, but no, you either take an almost certainly dangerous (possibly intentionally that way) "vaccine," or you get quarantined in an unknown location (the people posting on the thread theorize that the "quarantine" locations are actually concentration camps, but this is mostly theorizing so far).

By the way, roughly how much would it cost to get some sort of transport (doesn't have to be air, but probably should be since I'm way inland and I doubt there's any boats) to India (or maybe Britain, or Switzerland if I can learn whatever language they speak, I hear it's nice)?

 

[twinmama]

but Europe and Canada are not controlled by power-hungry, corrupt, conspiracy-creating politicians, are they?

ummm...may I introduce you to Silvio Berlusconi and some other lovely corrupted,sneaky leaders in Europe!

 

[T-Dawg]

ummm...may I introduce you to Silvio Berlusconi and some other lovely corrupted,sneaky leaders in Europe!

Never heard of him . But how could any politician in Europe be worse than the ones in America? How can one get more corrupt than Bush, Reagan, and their cronies? How can one get less honest than Obama (note that Obama has been breaking his campaign promises left and right ever since he came into office)?

Now, there's the European Union, which is obviously corrupt, but no one listens to or cares about them, right? It's not like the independent countries of Europe would ever sacrifice their freedom just because...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/european-politics/84577-lisbon-2-a.html?

Ireland has upset our European masters. In October we're being marched back to the polls to vote again.

Oh. Crud, it looks like Europe is no longer an option. Ok, so how about Asia? Surely Asia is filled with honest, responsible politicians?

 

[Valjean]

Where'd you get this idea the government would be providing healthcare? No-one is proposing that, not even the single-payer advocates. The most radical proposals have the government merely funding healthcare (and note that the "socialized," single payer systems we currently have in place are already outperforming the private system). The actual system would remain private, but the insurance company clerk would be eliminated from your Dr's office and the quotas would be gone.
Oh -- and our healthcare costs and taxes would go way down. Quality and access would go way up, and your paycheck would increase.

We're too corrupt to manage a socialized system? Europe and Asia can pull it off, but we're too incompetent?!
Should we eliminate the FDA and Dept. of Agriculture then? Would our food and pharmaceuticals be safer? How about the highway Dept? Would you still trust that bridge? And who do you think ensures we have clean water coming out of out taps? Do you think privatized, competative, for-profit fire and police companies would do a better job? The Republicans have already proposed the elimination of the Dept of Education. Would our country be better off with education only for those who can afford it?

Geez -- I could go on and on. Of course all of these socialized, government run departments have problems, but most of them are due to defunding, planned mismanagement, and elimination of oversight -- in a deliberate effort to discredit and eliminate them.
Our problem isn't corruption or incompetence -- it's sabotage.

You never heard of Berlusconi!?!? Have you been living under a rock? He makes headlines around the world on a regular basis! There's more media fenzy about him than there is about the Michael Jackson.

Are you sure you're informed enough about the state of affairs outside the US to have a valid comparative opinion on healthcare systems?
Frankly, I wouldn't take automotive advice from a buggy-rider who'se never heard of the internal combustion engine.

 

[T-Dawg]

Where'd you get this idea the government would be providing healthcare? No-one is proposing that, not even the single-payer advocates. The most radical proposals have the government merely funding healthcare (and note that the "socialized," single payer systems we currently have in place are already outperforming the private system). The actual system would remain private, but the insurance company clerk would be eliminated from your Dr's office and the quotas would be gone.

Sounds nice if that's all there is to it. But what if it starts acting like the educational system, where the federal government basically says "Ok, you can teach your kids how you like, but if you don't do it our [inefficient and substandard] way, we'll cut funding"? Or worse, "Vote this way or we'll cut your healthcare funding." I don't want that government to have any more power than they already do thanks to the patriot act, lobbyists, Obama's plans to take over the internet, etc.

We're too corrupt to manage a socialized system? Europe and Asia can pull it off, but we're too incompetent?!

Yes. America's inferior in just about every way to Europe and Asia by now - economically, culturally (well, that's an opinion matter I suppose), politically...

Should we eliminate the FDA and Dept. of Agriculture then?

We're better with them than without, knowing the corporations out there. But they don't do their job real well, IMO. After all, they approved of the bovine growth hormone... YouTube - FOX News Whistle blowers. UNBELIEVABLE!!!
(You'll enjoy this story, it's about Faux News. The video's about how a couple reporters wanted to report some studies shown on the dangers of this chemical farmers were injecting into their cows, and Fox tried bribery, threatening, all the usual stuff to get them to shut up.)

How about the highway Dept? Would you still trust that bridge?

I'll go with you on this one, I don't know much about highways.

And who do you think ensures we have clean water coming out of out taps?

............ You're trying to make fun of me, aren't you? All these times I've spoken against chemicals in our water supply (didn't I ever tell you guys? ), and you walk up to me and tell me my water's clean? I suppose it's not like the dirty water they have in third world countries, but really, water contaminated by toxins isn't exactly good. Currently, my attention's focused on fluoride. Here's a good article in particular:
Fluoride & the Brain

Do you think privatized, competative, for-profit fire and police companies would do a better job?

They might. There should probably be restrictions on private police, though, so they don't end up being used as private armies and martial law. A private company owning our law enforcement is just as scary as the government owning all of the weapons.

The Republicans have already proposed the elimination of the Dept of Education.

Er, weren't they for the educational system during Bush's reign, where they tried to "improve" the educational system with the No Child Gets Ahead, er, I mean, No Child Left Behind thing? Or did they damage the educational system on purpose so they could have an excuse to tear it down (why the heck would they want to do that though?)?

Would our country be better off with education only for those who can afford it?

It would be better off if parents would homeschool their children. It would also be better if the government stopped trying to mess with the educational system (the No Child Left Behind act comes to mind, but I'm sure the democrats have had at least a couple of education-lowering bills).

Of course all of these socialized, government run departments have problems, but most of them are due to defunding, planned mismanagement, and elimination of oversight -- in a deliberate effort to discredit and eliminate them.Our problem isn't corruption or incompetence -- it's sabotage.

Right, blame it on the republicans. Did the republicans blame everything on the democrats while they were in power (no, seriously, did they? I wasn't active in politics back then)? Do you really expect me to believe that even the republicans would tear apart their own country in an effort to maintain power? No one's that stupid - or at least, they shouldn't be, since education's socialized and all... did the republican politicians not go to school when they were young simply as a protest against socialism? XD (Yes, that one is a rhetorical question. I'm assuming the answer is no... )

ou never heard of Berlusconi!?!? Have you been living under a rock? He makes headlines around the world on a regular basis!

All my news comes from forums like this. They're more reliable, because they have people like you commenting on them to make sure they make sense . Why haven't there been any threads on this guy?

Are you sure you're informed enough about the state of affairs outside the US to have a valid comparative opinion on healthcare systems?

I know that people in Europe like their healthcare system and that it's socialized. I know that European governments aren't notorious for their conspiracies like the Americans are (or at least, I don't know of any European conspiracies, except maybe the European Union...). I know that the US government is controlled by power-hungry, money-obsessed politicians. What else do I need to know to conclude that government can't be trusted with healthcare? Even if the democrats do have good intentions, the republicans are going to come back into power shortly, and they DON'T have good intentions. They could easily convince everyone to let them take control of the healthcare, and boom, we have government administered healthcare instead of government funded healthcare.

And there's still the whole swine flu thing. The federal government might not administer mandatory swine flu vaccinations, but they could easily bribe the states into doing so.

 

[Valjean]

Sounds nice if that's all there is to it. But what if it starts acting like the educational system, where the federal government basically says "Ok, you can teach your kids how you like, but if you don't do it our [inefficient and substandard] way, we'll cut funding"? Or worse, "Vote this way or we'll cut your healthcare funding." I don't want that government to have any more power than they already do thanks to the patriot act, lobbyists, Obama's plans to take over the internet, etc.

Are you aware that we already have a socialized medical system in the VA, and a single-payer, private system in Medicare? Neither of them seem likely to take over, and both are operating much more efficiently and cost-effectively than our insurance or self pay system. Moreover, none of the other industrialized countries healthcare systems has had the problems you seem to fear.
I agree that our education system leaves a lot to be desired, but much of that is due to too much private input and too little control from pusillanimous state legislators. Our textbooks are full of pablum.

Yes. America's inferior in just about every way to Europe and Asia by now - economically, culturally (well, that's an opinion matter I suppose), politically...We're better with them than without, knowing the corporations out there. But they don't do their job real well, IMO. After all, they approved of the bovine growth hormone... YouTube - FOX News Whistle blowers. UNBELIEVABLE!!!

I could cite a dozen other FDA blunders in recent years, too -- all due to defunding and removal of government oversight.
If Europe is superior to America, it's because of more government. They fund their agencies adequately, staff them with competent people, and keep a close eye on them. They've also not let corporations infiltrate the government and dictate policy to the extent we have.

They might. There should probably be restrictions on private police, though, so they don't end up being used as private armies and martial law. A private company owning our law enforcement is just as scary as the government owning all of the weapons.

A half a dozen different, for-profit, privately subscribed to police and fire businesses, motivated to cut costs wherever possible = expensive chaos. Half the population probably wouldn't even subscribe and would opt for their own deterrents . And who would regulate traffic, organized crime, &c? Read your history. Private police -- paramilitaries -- police state.

Er, weren't they for the educational system during Bush's reign, where they tried to "improve" the educational system with the No Child Gets Ahead, er, I mean, No Child Left Behind thing? Or did they damage the educational system on purpose so they could have an excuse to tear it down (why the heck would they want to do that though?)?It would be better off if parents would homeschool their children. It would also be better if the government stopped trying to mess with the educational system (the No Child Left Behind act comes to mind, but I'm sure the democrats have had at least a couple of education-lowering bills).

Our education system's underfunded and infested with frightened, worked-up, ill-informed parents. (have you heard of the current Obama indoctrination scare?). Its fixable.
Homeschooling? Parents aren't polymaths, some are barely literate, and don't homeschool cirricula need to be government-approved anyway? It's also not as easy to raise a family on a single income, like it was in the regulated, higher taxed '50s and '60s. A parent may not have time to stay home and teach.

Right, blame it on the republicans. Did the republicans blame everything on the democrats while they were in power (no, seriously, did they? I wasn't active in politics back then)?

Yes, they did, along with moral decay, terrorist bogeymen and Mexicans.

Do you really expect me to believe that even the republicans would tear apart their own country in an effort to maintain power?

Yes. They've admitted it themselves. Republicans are in thrall to corporate interests, which do not want government. Republicans want to whittle away at government agencies "till they're small enough to drown in the bath water."
The Republicans, I think, would be happy to have the US resemble Victorian (Dickensian) England -- a small elite at the top, a powerful military, and an unregulated economy with a huge, impoverished, compliant pool of cheap labor.

{quote]All my news comes from forums like this. They're more reliable, because they have people like you commenting on them to make sure they make sense .[/quote]
Oh dear. You're not serious, are you?

:sarcastic

Why haven't there been any threads on this guy?

Yikes! He is serious! :thud:
My friend, most of what goes on in this world does not appear in these forums. Heck -- most of it doesn't appear in American, corporate-owned mainstream media either. You have a computer -- read the foreign press. Subscribe to some newsmagazines. Listen to some radio news and commentary shows.

I know that people in Europe like their healthcare system and that it's socialized.

No, no, no! Europe doesn't have one healthcare system, each country has its own, and they're all different. The UK's is socialized. Switzerland's is all insurance companies. Each is different.

I know that European governments aren't notorious for their conspiracies like the Americans are

I know that the US government is controlled by power-hungry, money-obsessed politicians. What else do I need to know to conclude that government can't be trusted with healthcare? Even if the democrats do have good intentions, the republicans are going to come back into power shortly, and they DON'T have good intentions.

More like the politicians are controlled by power-hungry, money-obsessed corporations, but I take your point. All the more reason to make some major reforms ASAP. Once the American people experience the benefits of reforms, they'll be loath to relinquish them. Try repealing Medicare or Social Security, for example. Even the anti-reform crowd seems to have made its peace with these. [Interesting note: Did you hear about that anti government healthcare protester that got his finger bit off? Guess how he paid for his medical treatment? (psssst --it starts with an "M")]

They could easily convince everyone to let them take control of the healthcare, and boom, we have government administered healthcare instead of government funded healthcare.

We already have that -- The VA system. Needs the admission red tape cleared up, but the actual medical care's supposed to be quite good.
Sometimes you just have to go for it, Loser. There are always what ifs, with everything. Thats why we need a vigilant and informed citizenry. :149:

And there's still the whole swine flu thing. The federal government might not administer mandatory swine flu vaccinations, but they could easily bribe the states into doing so.

You're determined to find a black cloud in every silver lining, aren't you?

If I linked you to some informative videos, would you watch them?

 

[T-Dawg]

Are you aware that we already have a socialized medical system in the VA, and a single-payer, private system in Medicare? Neither of them seem likely to take over, and both are operating much more efficiently and cost-effectively than our insurance or self pay system.

So if we already have socialized healthcare, what's the new bill going to do?

I agree that our education system leaves a lot to be desired, but much of that is due to too much private input and too little control from pusillanimous state legislators. Our textbooks are full of pablum.

Too much private input? I haven't heard of any private input in the educational system at all, unless you count idiot parents like the ones in the current Obama speech crisis. All the ******** in my textbooks is from the government that doesn't want us to know certain things (ie, Reagan's occupation of latin america).

A half a dozen different, for-profit, privately subscribed to police and fire businesses, motivated to cut costs wherever possible = expensive chaos. Half the population probably wouldn't even subscribe and would opt for their own deterrents . And who would regulate traffic, organized crime, &c? Read your history. Private police -- paramilitaries -- police state.

Which is why I said the private police should be highly regulated . Although I don't see why it's any less scary that the police we have now are all owned by the same organization... the government is not necessarily a non-profit organization.

My friend, most of what goes on in this world does not appear in these forums.

=O. Why not?

The Republicans, I think, would be happy to have the US resemble Victorian (Dickensian) England -- a small elite at the top, a powerful military, and an unregulated economy with a huge, impoverished, compliant pool of cheap labor.

But WHY would they want to do that?

You have a computer -- read the foreign press. Subscribe to some newsmagazines.

Where, how? And what do I do when Obama takes over the internet? He probably won't allow in the "unamerican" foreign press...

No, no, no! Europe doesn't have one healthcare system, each country has its own, and they're all different.

I know, I wasn't trying to imply that Europe was one, big country. Although with the European Union, they might be going there in a few decades...

More like the politicians are controlled by power-hungry, money-obsessed corporations

Through bribery, which the politicians take because they're corrupt and money-obsessed. But yes, take out the corporations, and the politicians are no longer a problem.

Thats why we need a vigilant and informed citizenry.

Might I remind you that this is AMERICA we're talking about? The Americans will never be vigilant and informed... they don't want to be, and by the time they realize what's going on, it'll be too late...

You're determined to find a black cloud in every silver lining, aren't you?

Someone's gotta do it, or else everyone will run right into the black cloud .

If I linked you to some informative videos, would you watch them?

Sure, I won't guarantee that I'll agree with them though . I have some informative videos and documents too, I'll PM them to you .

 

[twinmama]

Never heard of him . But how could any politician in Europe be worse than the ones in America?

Silvio Berlusconi is the prime minister of Italy.

There are huge differencies between EU countries in corruption. While some EU countries are virtually free from corruption, some EU countries suffer a lot from it.

There are good and bad politicians in both continent. The problem I see with 2-party systems like in USA is that it really isn't democratic. In the end two parties end up just scratching each others backs behind curtains...there are not enough watchfull eyes and counter powers to form really democratic system.

And for starters;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

http://www.euronews.net/

http://www.reuters.com/

http://www.oneworld.net/

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/

http://www.russiatoday.com/

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/

http://english.aljazeera.net/

http://allafrica.com/

http://www.newsasia.com/

 

[Valjean]

So if we already have socialized healthcare, what's the new bill going to do?

Which new bill? There are three in the House and Two in the Senate. It's a work in progress.
What we currently have is single payer for the impoverished (Medicaid), and for the over 65, (Medicare). Single payer advocates would like medicare extended to the whole population.

Too much private input? I haven't heard of any private input in the educational system at all, unless you count idiot parents like the ones in the current Obama speech crisis. All the ******** in my textbooks is from the government that doesn't want us to know certain things (ie, Reagan's occupation of latin america).

Exactly! All those things and many others. Parents have pressured the schools to remove anything remotely controversial or disturbing, never mind if it's true. Many 1920s high school textbooks contained an extensive explanation of evolution, for example. Try to find such an explanation today. (and you wonder why so many American's reject it -- they have no understanding of it!)

Which is why I said the private police should be highly regulated . Although I don't see why it's any less scary that the police we have now are all owned by the same organization... the government is not necessarily a non-profit

Think about it: Duplicate services. Subscriber checks before emergency responses. A large uncovered population. Extra costs for profit. Quality/service cuts -- also for profit. No generalized law enforcement -- response to individual calls only. No oversight. No accountability. No public input, &c.
It would be chaos. The wild west. Hugely expensive.

organization.=O. Why not?

This is a discussion forum. Not CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, &al!

But WHY would they want to do that?

Why do you think industry's moving operations to China? Why does it work so hard to bust unions? They want complete freedom, no regulation, plentiful labor that'll work for peanuts and never complain. Google Robber Barons -- it's happened before.

Where, how? And what do I do when Obama takes over the internet?

Magazines: Newsweek. The Nation, US News and World Report. Radio: NPR. Air America, many local stations. Internet: BBC, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, NY Times.. there are thousands of them.
And what's this about Obama taking over the internet? Have you been listening to Hannity Limbaugh or Beck?

I know, I wasn't trying to imply that Europe was one, big country. Although with the European Union, they might be going there in a few decades...

OK. Here's an informative video and website for you: FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS Watch the program if you have the time -- it's quite interesting. Click around the website.

Might I remind you that this is AMERICA we're talking about? The Americans will never be vigilant and informed... they don't want to be, and by the time they realize what's going on, it'll be too late...

Well let's all just roll over and tuck our tails between our legs. If it's hopeless, why even concern ourselves. Eat, drink and be merry...

Sure, I won't guarantee that I'll agree with them though . I have some informative videos and documents too, I'll PM them to you .

Holy **** Batman! You've got thirty hours of material there! I'll take a look, but I won't guarentee I'll read/watch everything start to finish.

My recommendations, much more modest: The Frontline Video and websight linked above is the longest. I also rather like the links posted in the "Obama's speech to school kids" thread in posts 115 and 117 -- you might already have listened to them, I see you've discovered the thread.

And you need to change your username. TheAmazingLoser is too long, and I don't like calling you "Loser" .
Do you have a nice, short, polite alternative I could use, since we seem to be in heated discussion over several posts.:rainbow1:

 

[T-Dawg]

The problem I see with 2-party systems like in USA is that it really isn't democratic. In the end two parties end up just scratching each others backs behind curtains...

Agreed. I stated something similar to this in another thread . Thanks for the links.

What we currently have is single payer for the impoverished (Medicaid), and for the over 65, (Medicare). Single payer advocates would like medicare extended to the whole population.

Wait, if the 65 and older already have socialized healthcare, what's all this talk on death pannels? If government healthcare was going to kill the old, wouldn't they already be able to do with with medicare?

Parents have pressured the schools to remove anything remotely controversial or disturbing, never mind if it's true. Many 1920s high school textbooks contained an extensive explanation of evolution, for example.

The more I learn, the more I wish I was born a century ago =/. How could even an American be so stupid as to demand the removal of true information from their textbooks? Evolution doesn't even contradict the Bible...

Magazines: Newsweek. The Nation, US News and World Report. Radio: NPR. Air America, many local stations. Internet: BBC, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, NY Times.. there are thousands of them.

I've never seen them though - the only magazines they have in the stores at my area are crap like "People Magazine" and stuff about losing weight and what celebrity had sex with who (yeah, it really shows the average IQ of people in my area. Seriously, why do I need to know about the dating life of some actor I've never heard of?).

And what's this about Obama taking over the internet?

I heard it on ATS, the finest news source on the internet.
Bill would give president emergency control of Internet, page 1
It sounds like the kind of thing Obama would do, although frankly I don't see how he's going to pull it off without having to deal with armed riots, and dealing with those just might wake up America.

OK. Here's an informative video and website for you: FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS Watch the program if you have the time -- it's quite interesting. Click around the website.

K, thanks .

Well let's all just roll over and tuck our tails between our legs. If it's hopeless, why even concern ourselves. Eat, drink and be merry...

My plan was actually getting out of the country. No drinking or merriness there, just running for our lives =/.

Holy **** Batman! You've got thirty hours of material there! I'll take a look, but I won't guarentee I'll read/watch everything start to finish.

It's ok, I didn't either XD. I watched all the videos through, but I only skimmed over some of the documents. Sometimes you don't need to read the whole thing to get the message XD. Oh, and most of them have absolutely nothing to do with this topic, they're just random articles I found over time I thought you might like .

And you need to change your username. TheAmazingLoser is too long, and I don't like calling you "Loser" .Do you have a nice, short, polite alternative I could use, since we seem to be in heated discussion over several posts.

A lot of people call me TAL. I think I might actually change my name, TheAmazingLoser is too much like Loser, which someone from one of the most contemptible, vilest forum sites out there might find (my name was Loser on another forum site that's filled with a lot of bad people and memories), and if THEY find me, they will come to RF and turn it into an anti-theist propaganda center just to avenge their defeat in the Great Christmas Debate (actually, they'd probably say they won, since I let them have the last word, but I had the more logical side, even though I had a few whacked ideas back then).

You think this is heated? LOL! You shoulda seen the Great Christmas Debate...

 

[Valjean]

The "Death Panels" are pure propaganda. A classic Big Lie.
The material in question is simply a living will -- a document outlining your medical wishes should you become incapacitated and unable to communicate with medical personnell. In contrast to the propaganda, it gives you control over your medical situation, it doesn't relinquish it.

If you've never seen these mags you're obviously already in a wilderness far from civilization.

Great Christmas Debate -- shudder!

 

[T-Dawg]

The "Death Panels" are pure propaganda. A classic Big Lie.

But why do people believe it, since it's so obvious that if there were death pannels, we'd already have them?

If you've never seen these mags you're obviously already in a wilderness far from civilization.

I live in Missouri (southern missouri for most of my life, I'm now about 15 minutes away from Iowa), of course it's far from civilization XD.

Great Christmas Debate -- shudder!

I'll PM you about it, I don't want to talk about it where THEY might see it.

 

[Falvlun]

But why do people believe it, since it's so obvious that if there were death pannels, we'd already have them?

Because Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, et al have told them that it is true, and that is all they need to know. They already are leary of liberals, so they are primed to believe the worst of them.

 

[blackout]

I honestly don't give a rat's *** anymore.
About the govt. and the dishonesty and all the blah blah blah.
you cant change any of it,
and you can't get away.

I'd just like someone to look at my neck
and tie my damn tubes.

I can't even afford the chiropractor anymore.

 

[T-Dawg]

Because Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, et al have told them that it is true, and that is all they need to know.

... WHAT?!? Limbaugh and Beck believe that crap? I've listened to them a few times (parents usually have the car radio tuned to them), I thought they were better then that...

I'd just like someone to look at my neck and tie my damn tubes.

Er, what?