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I just don't know....

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by rageoftyrael, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. rageoftyrael

    rageoftyrael Veritas

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    So, as i look at the world, as i allow what i know and think i know to ruminate in my head, i've come to the conclusion, somewhat, that i've no clue whether there is a god or not. Nothing makes sense! Every answer presented has flaws that i find quite readily, and even the answers where i don't find flaws quickly, i eventually find them later. When i talk about my beliefs in the afterlife, and the answers presented by science as possible explanations, i simply have come to the conclusion, that i don't really believe in much of anything at this point.

    Evolution? Makes sense for the most part, but the dilemma i see is say one cell "evolves". Now, isn't this a fairly random process? So, why would another "evolve" the same way? What makes them compatible, to mate, if you will? That's one issue i have with evolution. The big bang theory, well, that's easy, there's no proof whatsoever, so why would i believe it?

    Basically, i'm an atheist who doesn't even profess, nay, even feel belief for the answers most atheists cling to happily. And yet, when i look upon the whole god issue, i feel no belief there either. I don't see it one way or the other.

    I can see why deists choose to believe in something larger than us, because it hardly makes sense that everything would come about randomly, and yet, why not?

    Lol, at this point i'm rambling. What i'm looking for here is maybe how you guys feel about it. Am i the only one who just doesn't believe in any of it? What the heck is going on? And why? Of course, asking why presupposes that there is a design, and i don't believe that.

    To me, science doesn't trump religion, if science can't PROVE anything. Though, of course, i just don't believe in religion. You?
     
  2. Gjallarhorn

    Gjallarhorn N'yog-Sothep

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    You mean in big things like mammals, or when it first started?
     
  3. Acim

    Acim Revelation all the time

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    I have, at times, felt the way you are expressing things.

    Sometimes I just want to stop this ride (the world) and move on to place with less doubt and more clarity.

    Other times, mood is such that I like exploring here, like the things/people that bring me relatively consistent joy, and I am usually compelled to get to the 'next big thing.'

    Perhaps others will provide you answers that help you more than my simple response.

    Be well.
     
  4. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.

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    Nah I don't see much...
     
  5. Blackdog22

    Blackdog22 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I feel the same way man. What the hell are we doing on a giant rock in the middle of fkn nowhere? I always wondered what the chances of a male and female version evolving at the same time or around the same time would've been. There maybe an explanation I am not aware of, it just all seems so unlikely. If God does truly exist, he sucks however, so I find no peace in anything. Sometimes... I just kinda wanna die and find out.
     
  6. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    Your problem with evolution is you do not seem to understand the basic theory. It is not a random process and no single cell "evolves". Life forms produce copies of themselves, and it is all about which types of self-copiers produce the most offspring. What determines that is their environment. Humans breed plants and animals by the same mechanism, but humans, rather than nature, choose which plants and animals get to have more offspring. Evolution theory is about how the environment functions as an unthinking "breeder" of life forms.

    What "answers" do atheists cling to "happily"? Atheism is the denial or rejection of belief in gods.

    Everything did not come about randomly. Do you not believe in causation?
     
  7. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    For me, there is no conflict between science and faith. They are both in perfect harmony, as (the way I see it) discovering the laws of science by human beings is an attempt for understanding the Laws of the Creator in the design of this amazing universe

    And God actually encourages us to do that: to think and reflect, and at the end of this intellectual journey we would have two main options: either to recognize that there is indeed intelligent design in this universe and therefore behind it must be an intelligent "Designer", or continue down the "I don't know path" which leads nowhere if it is a subjective decision

    Understanding the purpose of life, and searching for the answer of the questions "If there is a Creator, who is He? and what does He want us to do?" can be a life-long journey, and the best approach to take is an objective approach

    The fact that you are willing to consider several alternatives is a good sign, so the best thing to do is to continue the search with an open mind, and to continue reading and reflecting ...

    If you really have the intention of finding the right answers to these questions, you will ...
     
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  8. idav

    idav Being
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    God doesn't have any absolute proofs so clues are hard to come by. I personally worry more about life than afterlife.
    I'm pretty sure everything started asexually and eventually evolved to the point of mating sexually. Kind of interesting question though. Evolution is only as random as the process is for finding a mate.
    The universe is expanding faster than the speed of light which is evidence that it started expanding at some point. You don't have to call it big bang its just expansion.
    Atheists don't believe in god so they find happiness elsewhere. I think most of us are agnostics for the most part anyway.
    Deists do have a good argument since god might just be an absentee. Sure I guess it started somewhere or just always existed but always a perplexing question.

    Haha, yeah your all over the place on this one. Not sure what answer your looking for, sounds like you just want to know everything. Me too, lol. I'm not sure about intentional design but or brains sure are good at finding patterns in things where patterns normally wouldn't exist. Again it started somewhere I suppose.
    Math is for proofs not science. Science answers plenty but does tend to leave us more questions. Such is the nature of knowledge. Another thing about knowledge is that ignorance is bliss so if you really wanna know stuff keep yourself strapped in best you can. Religion doesn't have much that you can't find else where. Science is in a realm of its own and has more than proven its value a thousand fold.
     
  9. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    At this point I would highly recommend reading some books on both of those topics.
    It's not as random nor as baseless as you seem to think.
    As for proof, well science (except math) doesn't work on proof.
    Instead it's all about the evidence making certain explanations more likely than some while making others an impossibility.
    Science is to a large degree about eliminating false explanations.

    Atheism doesn't provide any answers.
    An atheist is simply someone who does not believe in a god or gods.

    The short answer: We don't know.
    Sorry.

    As mentioned above, science is not about proving anything with 100% certainty.
    It's all about what's probable, and in some cases we can get fairly close to that 100% mark, but we can never fully reach it.
    I think maybe that's what your problem is: You seem to be expecting an amount of certainty that no-one can give you.
    I'm really sorry, but it's like that for everyone, even though some manage to fool themselves into thinking they have found that certainty.
    The (sad?) truth is that nobody, living or alive, can tell you what it's all about, and the ones who claim they can are either deluding themselves or lying.
    As for the meaning of life, the universe and everything, I guess 42 is as good an answer as any.
    Or you could decide for yourself what your life is going to be about.
    That's my advice anyway. :)
     
  10. Landerage

    Landerage Araknor

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    My answer is to you, is to forget about science and everything in this world for a second. Then take an apple and look at it's shape and how it holds in your hand, then take a bite and taste, then admire how it's crafted and sits well in your hand and the beautiful red color of it and the sweet taste of it, and how it magicaly gives u energy and then think about nothing but that apple ( or any other fruit) then look at me in the face and tell me i dont beleive in God not even by 1%
    (btw beleiving is not knowing, most people who beleive in God are not "knowers" let's take beleiving is on a % scale, so every human beleive in a different percentage)
     
  11. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    So, you ask people to forgo all their knowledge about the world, forget that apples have been cultivated for millennia, imagine that apples have been crafted instead of having evolved, set aside the fact that there is a very good evolutionary basis for their colour and taste, and fantasize that nutrition equals magic, and THEN they should believe in god?

    Really?

    That's how you help people? :sarcastic
     
  12. Evandr

    Evandr Stripling Warrior

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    The problem with science is that it takes what is and then tries to define the path to its present equation all the while evolving with new information that impacts and/or invalidated past conclutions all the while discounting the thought of intellegent design, a discounting that has no basis other than pure beligerence to the thought of it. That places pure science on pretty shaky ground seeing that science itself has to admit that, by its own devices and methods, its conclutions are far more unlikely to carry water than that of intellegent design.
     
    #12 Evandr, Aug 11, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  13. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    :facepalm:
    I don't even know where to begin with this one...
    Let's see what a real scientist has to say about it shall we?

    [youtube]oEl9kVl6KPc[/youtube]
    Intelligent Design is Stupid: Neil deGrasse Tyson - YouTube
     
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  14. Evandr

    Evandr Stripling Warrior

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    I have to disagree on the near 100% probability on anything at all with regard to the conclusions of science (outside the realms of mathematics of course). For me that is like a small child claiming to understand quantum mechanics because they have finally learned to add single digits together and get the answer right most of the time; far too often today’s pat and unchangeable laws of science become the wreckage of tomorrows new revelations.

    We simply do not have the wisdom and knowledge to use science to discount intelligent design. Our minds are, however, capable of grasping just how lacking we are in knowledge so as to accurately draw one conclusion - "those who rely on science to form the ethos' of the philosophies that guide their actions are akin to those who think themselves getting somewhere because they are constantly raising themselves off the ground each time they stumble by going through the motions of pulling on their own boot straps in an effort to fly", A lot of energy is consumed getting nowhere while foolishly refusing to admit the folly of putting all their stock in pure science.

    I have tried the promises given by that God which many discount as foolishness and have been party the realization that there is substance in it and ample reason to continue on my current path of belief in God. I have learned and experienced the growth that comes from taking line upon line and precept upon precept as administered by God with regard to the reality of God and what I should believe and subsiquently do; my belief grows stronger each day and the pasth before me grows clearer while the purveyors of science, as a totalitarian explanation for the state of reality, continue to roll around in the dirt.
     
  15. Evandr

    Evandr Stripling Warrior

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    Where do you begin??? Where do I begin!!! This idiot proved my point with exactness, volumes could be filled with what he is not considering when it comes to God and creation, all he did was demonstrate a disgruntled attitude about what “he” perceives as stupid design thinking his ideas about the trials we face in mortality have no purpose other than to give him reason to deny God, what a fool.

    Life is but a blink of an eye in the eternities but the growth and trajectory into the eternities we set here by how we handle our surroundings complete with the trials and commandments we are given have eternal ramification in realms that will have none of the ills that he seems so intent on focusing on as reason to discount intelligent design.

    His views are so narrow as to render them little more than stupidity in its purest form; his rhetoric has no foundation either in science or religion and his rants smacked of a hidden agenda. I’d say “nice try” but you just stumbled back to the ground with that one leaving you nothing to impress me with as far as this Bozo is concerned.
     
  16. Starsoul

    Starsoul Truth

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    sorry but this has to be one of the most dumbest videos I've ever seen, very self illustrious of scientific studipity, If this is what science hangs by for its justification.

    Its like if someone is denying intelligent design, they must be called stupid, but since we acknowledge intelligent design so that means we're more intelligent, sorry but thats the only inference of this video.
     
  17. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    So... do you have any evidence to back that up? ;)
     
  18. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    What on Earth are you trying to say here? :sarcastic
    Sorry, but I can't make neither heads nor tails of your comment.
     
    #18 jarofthoughts, Aug 11, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  19. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    Well, we're pretty close to 100% sure that the Earth revolves around the Sun, wouldn't you say?
    Or did you forget that that's science too? ;)

    What is it that you are really trying to say here?
    That science is worthless?
    Is that your opinion?

    Good for you I guess.
    So, do you have any evidence for this "god" of which you speak? :p
     
  20. Landerage

    Landerage Araknor

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    First of all, this reply wasn't meant for you, apparently u chose ur way to being an atheist and I don't think no matter what ppl tell u or show u, only God is able to make you believe and nobody else.
    Well an apple is quite a miracle for me, evolution is such a vague word for something so complex as an apple,scientists cannot explain why there is food that match humans need and magically animals need aswell. Evolution is pretty smart then. But that's just humans ego who think they made those apples too and refuse to believe that there is someone smarter then them who architectures everything to what humans need. Very well, I hope God may guide you!
     
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