I have some deep question about God, help!

[Sanzbir]

With all due respect, I do not think that most people suffer because they choose to.

Well let me initially stop you right there, because "plenty out there" != "most", so you appear to be mistakenly presuming my position to begin with.

There might be a few people who are masochistic but most people suffer because this world is a storehouse of suffering, more for some people than for other people. Some suffering is within our control and other suffering is not.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200​

​

Nah, check the Valleys, suffering is within our control, even if it is not by choice. Our Faith contains within it a mystical path to contentment, so the tools to end suffering are within our grasp, and according to scripture, it is even our duty to attain this contentment:

"The world has never had nor does it now possess stability (thabát), notwithstanding the complaints of some unfaithful and wavering souls. But, in truth, whatever takes place is well-pleasing, for the divine wisdom has ordained it. Without His command and will, not a leaf can stir, and whatever occurs is conformable to wisdom. All must be contented with it, nay eagerly desire it. However, in some cases, such as when the sweetness of reunion gives way to the bitterness of separation and, likewise, when, by the decree of remoteness, nearness and meeting are banished--this causes sighs of sorrow and grief to be upraised and the tears to flow. Otherwise, the matter is as some of the philosophers have cited from the words of Idrís: 'It is impossible for the realm of creation to be better than it already is.'" (Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh)

I would say, given the tools at our disposal, that it may not be a choice to suffer (though there are some who do choose to suffer), but it is a choice to not suffer.

So the question is, why does God allow some people to suffer so much and others hardly at all.

My question is "is there really such a disparity in suffering between people??"

Suffering is a subjective thing. Just as a man who leaves a sauna into a room-temperature room will call the second room "cold" while a man who enters that same room from outdoors in a blizzard will call it "hot", what is considered a cause of "suffering" varies from person to person.

As Fasting has likely shown you, the suffering one endures lessens each day as you gradually become more and more used to eating only when the sun is down. There are those completely content in conditions of abject poverty, and there are some people who seem content in conditions that would seem horrible to our subjective gaze. "A lover is he who is chill in hell fire;" (Poem of Attar quoted in Seven Valleys)

Likewise a man who is raised in extreme privilege isolated from discomfort will find true suffering in even the most petty of inconveniences. Compared to other things, first world problems seem minor and minute, but to those who don't know better, those problems are causes of real suffering. How many rich elites kill themselves out of depression despite having more luxury and comfort than most can ever hope for??

It seems that those who have more reason to suffer suffer less from a single event than someone who has less reason to suffer suffers from a similar event. So I'd find it impossible to measure and quantify who suffers more and who suffers less, given that the entire nature of suffering is subjective to begin with.

 

[Thief]

If there is a real god, why the silly and cruel game of hide-and-seek?

freewill....

we develop as is

if God were leading us about.....there would be less variety in character

kinda like the Prime Directive in the scheme of Star Trek

 

[ratiocinator]

freewill....

we develop as is

if God were leading us about.....there would be less variety in character

Leaving aside for the moment the nonsense of any idea of "free will" from the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator, a god hiding its message amongst all the false ones (which was the subject) can't possibly give us more freedom. It just means it's a matter of luck, culture, and temperament whether we find it, not a free choice. To make a free choice, you have to have all the facts.

 

[Remté]

Leaving aside for the moment the nonsense of any idea of "free will" from the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator, a god hiding its message amongst all the false ones (which was the subject) can't possibly give us more freedom. It just means it's a matter of luck, culture, and temperament whether we find it, not a free choice. To make a free choice, you have to have all the facts.

Facts don't help you far toward a free will. No one has a completely free will from a philosophical or psychological aspect.

 

[Thief]

Leaving aside for the moment the nonsense of any idea of "free will" from the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator, a god hiding its message amongst all the false ones (which was the subject) can't possibly give us more freedom. It just means it's a matter of luck, culture, and temperament whether we find it, not a free choice. To make a free choice, you have to have all the facts.

you don't need facts to make a choice

you do read postings here at the Forum......right?

 

[dybmh]

@A94,

It's not easy being a believer in Christ especially in this modern world. It becomes more difficult if that belief includes the belief that God is all love, that Hell is a real place that takes the ignorant along with guilty, and that the humanity would be a better place if the End Times were already passed and all of this was already perfected.

This is a hard path; I support you if your choice is to follow it.

Along this path, when people learn about your religious beliefs; it will naturally lead to curiosity and questions about God and Christianity.

In this thread, you are asking how to answer these questions when they come up, and how to support your own beliefs in your heart, soul, and mind. Many good answers and good advice have been given. I encourage you read and possibly re-read each and every reply in this thread. I believe what you are looking for is well represented here, even among those who do not share your religious identity.

If after reading these replies, you still have questions; I recommend creating new threads one at a time focusing on one big question at a time. Don't create multiple threads all at once, and engage with the individuals who reply.

Choose the subforum for your threads deliberately. If you are looking for support from other Christians, start your thread in the Christian-DIR. DIR is an acronym for "Discuss Indiviual Religions". To participate in a DIR, you need to identify yourself as belonging to the "individual religion". To do this, go to the " Personal Details" area of your profile, scroll down, and look for the check boxes. As a Believer in Christ, you probably want to put a check in the box for the "Abrahamic Religions". This will allow you to start new threads and reply in the Christianity DIR, see link below:

Christianity DIR

Individuals replying to threads in this subforum have more freedom to speak with authority when answering your questions.

On the other hand, starting and replying to threads outside the DIR(s) can be immensely valuable when looking for diverse answers and doing opposition research.

Aside from this, I have 2 things to offer which I hope will be helpful in your search for understanding and in your approach to answering questions about God and Christianity.

1) Understanding results from a collection of relevant data. Developing understanding requires data collection. Give yourself permission to explore a variety of beliefs and non-beliefs. Some people discourage this practice and think it distracts and can lead a true believer astray. I do not agree with this approach. I believe there is tremendous value in living life with wonder and valuing all beliefs and non-beliefs as creations from Almighty God.

2) Christianity encourages sharing its beliefs with non-believers, but I think sharing should be distinguished from teaching and preaching. When a person asks you about Christianity and God, I think you should evaluate the audience and the circumstances before answering. Ask yourself, what do I know about this person's beliefs? Who else is listening ( or within earshot )? And most important: What is the intention of the question? Is the person curious about you personally and they want to get to know you better? Has the person never met someone who is a Believer in Christ, and they are seizing the moment to learn about Christianity and God from someone with insider knowledge? Or, are they looking to reinforce their own beliefs or non-beliefs by finding flaws in how you answer their questions?

In the moment, detecting the motives of your audience and where they are in their intellectual and / or spiritual pursuits is an art, and it takes practice. Those who are good at it make it look simple. Witnessing someone who has this talent is incredibly inspiring. It is inspiring because these people are so eloquent; their faith seems to rise above the doubt and clamor surrounding this modern material world. And for a Christian who is encouraged to share their beliefs, it may be tempting to capture the moment and emulate these talented gifted individuals by sharing and teaching about Chrisianity and God.

When this happens, try to remember the differences between sharing, teaching, and preaching. The differences are more about the audience and less about you. When the person you are speaking to wants to learn about God and Christianity, it's teaching. When the person you are speaking to does not want to learn or is looking for flaws in your beliefs, that is preaching. When a person wants to learn about you as a person, that is sharing.

Using these definitions: sharing and teaching are almost always positive, and preaching is generally negative. It takes a very talented, knowledgable, and experienced person to reliably preach in a way that renders positive effects. There is a benefit to learning by doing, so to speak. So I don't want to 100% discourage someone like you from preaching. But I think it's important for you to recognize the difference between sharing, teaching, and preaching. And therefore it think it's important to recognize sharing and teaching are more reliably positive, and preaching can become negative if not employed with finesse and practice.

Note: Preaching is prohibited on this website.

Sharing and teaching can shift into preaching at any point depending on the attitude of the audience, their receptivity to your message, and the tone of your answers. Sometimes these conversations develop a life of their own. Being sensitive to that will be helpful. If the audience becomes frustrated, it's usually good to step back from your assertions. This helps to prevent sounding like a know-it-all. And being aware of others who are over hearing your conversation is a good skill to develop.

My opinion is that some people are very bad at preaching, myself included. I think it's a gift; I think it's beautiful; and when done with grace, it's like watching poetry in motion.

This is why the most convincing approach for most people to support Christainity and Belief in Jesus comes from the testimony of believers. In my opinion this is sharing, not teaching, but can approach preaching if the speaker is not careful and wise.

 

[sooda]

@A94,

It's not easy being a believer in Christ especially in this modern world. It becomes more difficult if that belief includes the belief that God is all love, that Hell is a real place that takes the ignorant along with guilty, and that the humanity would be a better place if the End Times were already passed and all of this was already perfected.

This is a hard path; I support you if your choice is to follow it.

Along this path, when people learn about your religious beliefs; it will naturally lead to curiosity and questions about God and Christianity.

In this thread, you are asking how to answer these questions when they come up, and how to support your own beliefs in your heart, soul, and mind. Many good answers and good advice have been given. I encourage you read and possibly re-read each and every reply in this thread. I believe what you are looking for is well represented here, even among those who do not share your religious identity.

If after reading these replies, you still have questions; I recommend creating new threads one at a time focusing on one big question at a time. Don't create multiple threads all at once, and engage with the individuals who reply.

Choose the subforum for your threads deliberately. If you are looking for support from other Christians, start your thread in the Christian-DIR. DIR is an acronym for "Discuss Indiviual Religions". To participate in a DIR, you need to identify yourself as belonging to the "individual religion". To do this, go to the " Personal Details" area of your profile, scroll down, and look for the check boxes. As a Believer in Christ, you probably want to put a check in the box for the "Abrahamic Religions". This will allow you to start new threads and reply in the Christianity DIR, see link below:

Christianity DIR

Individuals replying to threads in this subforum have more freedom to speak with authority when answering your questions.

On the other hand, starting and replying to threads outside the DIR(s) can be immensely valuable when looking for diverse answers and doing opposition research.

Aside from this, I have 2 things to offer which I hope will be helpful in your search for understanding and in your approach to answering questions about God and Christianity.

1) Understanding results from a collection of relevant data. Developing understanding requires data collection. Give yourself permission to explore a variety of beliefs and non-beliefs. Some people discourage this practice and think it distracts and can lead a true believer astray. I do not agree with this approach. I believe there is tremendous value in living life with wonder and valuing all beliefs and non-beliefs as creations from Almighty God.

2) Christianity encourages sharing its beliefs with non-believers, but I think sharing should be distinguished from teaching and preaching. When a person asks you about Christianity and God, I think you should evaluate the audience and the circumstances before answering. Ask yourself, what do I know about this person's beliefs? Who else is listening ( or within earshot )? And most important: What is the intention of the question? Is the person curious about you personally and they want to get to know you better? Has the person never met someone who is a Believer in Christ, and they are seizing the moment to learn about Christianity and God from someone with insider knowledge? Or, are they looking to reinforce their own beliefs or non-beliefs by finding flaws in how you answer their questions?

In the moment, detecting the motives of your audience and where they are in their intellectual and / or spiritual pursuits is an art, and it takes practice. Those who are good at it make it look simple. Witnessing someone who has this talent is incredibly inspiring. It is inspiring because these people are so eloquent; their faith seems to rise above the doubt and clamor surrounding this modern material world. And for a Christian who is encouraged to share their beliefs, it may be tempting to capture the moment and emulate these talented gifted individuals by sharing and teaching about Chrisianity and God.

When this happens, try to remember the differences between sharing, teaching, and preaching. The differences are more about the audience and less about you. When the person you are speaking to wants to learn about God and Christianity, it's teaching. When the person you are speaking to does not want to learn or is looking for flaws in your beliefs, that is preaching. When a person wants to learn about you as a person, that is sharing.

Using these definitions: sharing and teaching are almost always positive, and preaching is generally negative. It takes a very talented, knowledgable, and experienced person to reliably preach in a way that renders positive effects. There is a benefit to learning by doing, so to speak. So I don't want to 100% discourage someone like you from preaching. But I think it's important for you to recognize the difference between sharing, teaching, and preaching. And therefore it think it's important to recognize sharing and teaching are more reliably positive, and preaching can become negative if not employed with finesse and practice.

Note: Preaching is prohibited on this website.

Sharing and teaching can shift into preaching at any point depending on the attitude of the audience, their receptivity to your message, and the tone of your answers. Sometimes these conversations develop a life of their own. Being sensitive to that will be helpful. If the audience becomes frustrated, it's usually good to step back from your assertions. This helps to prevent sounding like a know-it-all. And being aware of others who are over hearing your conversation is a good skill to develop.

My opinion is that some people are very bad at preaching, myself included. I think it's a gift; I think it's beautiful; and when done with grace, it's like watching poetry in motion.

This is why the most convincing approach for most people to support Christainity and Belief in Jesus comes from the testimony of believers. In my opinion this is sharing, not teaching, but can approach preaching if the speaker is not careful and wise.

"Sharing" is very different than preaching.. and its non threatening.

 

[Witness of Jehovah]

The Bible answers all of these questions. Succinctly, the hell fire doctrine is not a Bible teaching. The word *hell* is a translation of the Hebrew word *sheol* which means the common grave of mankind. In the Bible, the good man Job prayed to go to hell in order to be relieved of his suffering on earth. As well, Jesus Christ himself spent three days in hell. Surely these things would make no sense if hell were anything other than the grave where a sleep-like state of death occurs.

As to why Satan has not yet been destroyed and the earth restored to it's original paradise condition, the Bible says, : “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

Here are links to two Bible based article that will give you further detail on these subjects. You can read them along with your own copy of the Bible, whatever version or translation you prefer to use

What Is God's Purpose For The Earth And Mankind?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/gods-purpose-earth-mankind/

What Really Is Hell?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002521

 

[Trailblazer]

Well let me initially stop you right there, because "plenty out there" != "most", so you appear to be mistakenly presuming my position to begin with.

I did not say you said most. It was just my opinion that most people do not suffer because they choose to.

Nah, check the Valleys, suffering is within our control, even if it is not by choice. Our Faith contains within it a mystical path to contentment, so the tools to end suffering are within our grasp, and according to scripture, it is even our duty to attain this contentment:

If it is within our control then we can control it, so it is a choice whether we control it or not.

Maybe the tools to end suffering are within our grasp, but not everyone knows how to use those tools.

Even if that were true for Baha’is, what about the 99.9% of people in the world who are not Baha’is?

If you say that suffering is within everyone’s control, the implication is that those who suffer could avert suffering if only they wanted to. That is lacking in love and compassion. The thing is that everyone is not the same so the Baha’i magic formulas do not work for everyone, not even for all Baha’is. We cannot know that it would work if only they were more x or more y because nobody but God can ever know what people have to endure and what they are capable of doing.

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186​

"The world has never had nor does it now possess stability (thabát), notwithstanding the complaints of some unfaithful and wavering souls. But, in truth, whatever takes place is well-pleasing, for the divine wisdom has ordained it. Without His command and will, not a leaf can stir, and whatever occurs is conformable to wisdom. All must be contented with it, nay eagerly desire it. However, in some cases, such as when the sweetness of reunion gives way to the bitterness of separation and, likewise, when, by the decree of remoteness, nearness and meeting are banished--this causes sighs of sorrow and grief to be upraised and the tears to flow. Otherwise, the matter is as some of the philosophers have cited from the words of Idrís: 'It is impossible for the realm of creation to be better than it already is.'" (Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh)

That is a great Tablet and I have not seen it before. Where did you find it?

I would say, given the tools at our disposal, that it may not be a choice to suffer (though there are some who do choose to suffer), but it is a choice to not suffer.

If it is a choice to not suffer that means it is a choice to suffer, logically speaking.

My question is "is there really such a disparity in suffering between people??"

There is a huge disparity in suffering between people and many people suffer through no fault of their own. Do people choose to get cancer or choose to lose a loved one such as a child? We have no right to judge anyone’s reactions to these life circumstances because we can never know what those people have to contend with in life, and we do not know them as they know themselves.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45​

Suffering is a subjective thing. Just as a man who leaves a sauna into a room-temperature room will call the second room "cold" while a man who enters that same room from outdoors in a blizzard will call it "hot", what is considered a cause of "suffering" varies from person to person.

As Fasting has likely shown you, the suffering one endures lessens each day as you gradually become more and more used to eating only when the sun is down. There are those completely content in conditions of abject poverty, and there are some people who seem content in conditions that would seem horrible to our subjective gaze. "A lover is he who is chill in hell fire;" (Poem of Attar quoted in Seven Valleys)

Likewise a man who is raised in extreme privilege isolated from discomfort will find true suffering in even the most petty of inconveniences. Compared to other things, first world problems seem minor and minute, but to those who don't know better, those problems are causes of real suffering. How many rich elites kill themselves out of depression despite having more luxury and comfort than most can ever hope for??

It seems that those who have more reason to suffer suffer less from a single event than someone who has less reason to suffer suffers from a similar event. So I'd find it impossible to measure and quantify who suffers more and who suffers less, given that the entire nature of suffering is subjective to begin with.

You are assuming that the rich man has no reason to suffer whereas the poor man has a reason to suffer, but that is based only upon material conditions, which are not the true cause of suffering. The rich man is depressed for a reason and we cannot judge him because it is not our place to judge anyone; only God can judge.

Having more material wealth is not a reason to be happier. I have a lot of material wealth and assets and it is the major cause of my suffering. The only reason I do not suffer as much as I used to before I had all of this is because I have turned it over to God. It is still a struggle. The more we have the more we have to take care of and worry about. Detachment helps but it is not a panacea. Life was much easier before I had all of this. I really have no use for a lot of money and I do not use money for anything except the bare bones basics. If only I had really believed in God before I would not have amassed all this wealth and property, but now that I have it, it is prudent to keep it because it will all go to the Fund when we die since we have no children. That is a reason to keep it even though it is a terrible burden.

 

[MJFlores]

Hello,
I have some questions, that I can't find the answers to. (I'm still learning.)
I've been studying and asking God to show me answers to these questions, and yet I'm still so lost.
Hoping someone can help me out a little.

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

Also, why is there a hell? The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died. Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience. How is this love?
The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist? Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?
He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not? Should he not have interfered, then?
Also, being all-knowing, should he not have seen this all coming and prevented it?
Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?
Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will? It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?
I know the bible says in the end times God will do his final justice once and for all and make things right. However, that will still involve a lot of people going to hell, and I don't understand why he must let us suffer this way, until then.

Not looking to argue or get into anything, as religious discussions tend to go... just really, honestly looking for answers.
Hoping someone can help me understand these things.
Thank you.

I've been studying and asking God to show me answers to these questions, and yet I'm still so lost.

People wouldn't be lost if they follow the Bible - just take baby steps going there...

Jeremiah 6:16 New International Version (NIV)

This is what the Lord says:

“Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’



The Lord God instructs us, to examine (look) the various religions (crossroads) and ask for the old ways and not only that but it should be the good way. After finding that good way, people should walk in it. Not all ways are good by the way:



Proverbs 14:12 New International Version (NIV)

There is a way that appears to be right,
but in the end it leads to death.



And a lot of people think they are in the right way but little do they know they are still in darkness and no salvation is in sight.

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

Do you happen to know the story of Adam and Eve? What do you think would have happened if they did obey the only rule they have to observe, the only command they are supposed not to foul up?



Genesis 2:16-17 New International Version (NIV)

And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”


Just one command and they could not even obey the all-loving God. So the blame is on us also.

Romans 5:12 New International Version (NIV)

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—


All people die because all sinned –we are not innocent.

Romans 3:23 New International Version (NIV)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


We are all guilty of sin. As long as we live in this evil world, we are guilty of sin, one way or another.

Romans 7:14-25 New International Version (NIV)

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.



But there is a way out from all of this, a solution and the way where we should walk on it.

But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ [last phrase of Jeremiah 6:16]


There are many points of discussion in your query but it would be better to take baby steps because those which I haven't touched yet might come as a shock to you.

 

[dfnj]

The first step to finding the answers is to start asking the right questions.

Hello,
If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

This is the basic question why does evil exist in the World. Lately I've been resonating with the ideas of Apophatic theology.

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

Essentially, God is perfect goodness. God's is perfectly complete, needs nothing, and lacks nothing. "God is infinite Love", "God is infinite Beauty", "God is infinite Good". The Universe we live in was not created out of some lack or need by God. It was created as an out-pouring of God's abundance.

So what we experience in the Universe is not complete and perfect. We only experience slivers of God's greatness. The out-pouring of God's abundance only has one place to go. And that is back to the wholeness and oneness of God. We are all drawn to God.

When people die, they return to God and experience God's infinite beauty and wholeness in everlasting heavenly bliss.

The Universe is not perfect like God which is why we experience suffering.

Also, why is there a hell? The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died. Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience. How is this love?
The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.

I once read hell was place outside Jerusalem where dead bodies of people who died from disease were brought to be burned. Hell is tricky subject. Many people love the idea of Hell. I once had an argument with a born-again Christian on the nature of God. He did not like what I was saying and told me I would suffer eternal damnation after I die. I said, "How bad can it be? It can't be worse than living in New Jersey." He did not smile and was very serious about it.

I think people of low character love the idea that other people would suffer for their sins. That there exists some kind of cosmic justice for people they are seeking revenge against, or haven't forgiven, or just want to see people suffer out of hatred.

My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who lets everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. My faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love is usual much stronger than people who promote Hell. It seems to me an omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. And God is the one place where everyone gets treated equally. We are all God's creation so it just seems he would collect us all back to the source.

And so what if Hitler is in Heaven. What difference does it make if everyone Hitler has sinned against is also experiencing eternal Heavenly bliss. Having Hitler in Heaven only proves God's greatness by showing off His infinite omnipotent powers of forgiveness. And besides, I think once you die, go into the light, experience God's infinite beauty, you are too enamored or mesmerized by God's infinite beauty to have any conscious thoughts about anyone around you. Why would ever turn away from God and stop experiencing eternal Heavenly bliss just so you can form a complaint about who's next to you. I think once you experience God time ceases to exist.

And besides, Hell would be filled with billions of non-Christian Chinese which doesn't seem right.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist? Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?

It's not that God can or cannot destroy Satan. Satan exists as a separation for what it means to be God. God is complete and perfect without any needs or desires. Our purpose here is to experience God's Greatness.

The Greatness of God comes in two forms. We can experience slivers of God's Greatness in experiencing beauty. Or we can experience slivers of God Greatness when we are participating in performance (as in being in the "zone" in sports).

The only thing about the Universe that is interesting is Murphy's law. The Universe has a strange flavor of everything flowing to disorder and chaos while at the some time counter to that is an organizing principle. I think the way the Universe is constructed is so God gets to experience unimaginable possibilities which is a necessary component for God to realize His omnipotence. From God's highest possible dimensional view, all moments of time occur in a single instance.

He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not? Should he not have interfered, then?

What is sin, what is evil, what is a mistake, what is suffering, what is bad, are all subjective judgments of man. I think God is indifferent if we crap in our own beds. I think based on human experiments, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will.

What God wants is for us to experience slivers of God's greatness in spite of all the chaos and suffering. If you believe in a "Unity of opposites", then the chaos and suffering we experience may be a necessary component for us in appreciating what is divine. Again, God is perfect and complete. It is the existence of the Universe that is incomplete and separate from God.

Unity of opposites - Wikipedia

Also, being all-knowing, should he not have seen this all coming and prevented it?
Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?

I'm pretty sure God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with naked woman prancing about. But seriously, my thinking is the Universe exists so we can experience slivers of God's greatness.

We live in a world like this so we get to experience and appreciate God's Greatness. We go through our lives being drawn to God and God's Greatness. To the final point when we are finally drawn completely back to God and get to experience God's infinite beauty is all its completeness.

Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will? It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?

I live in New Jersey so I'm not sure I qualify to answer this question. However, I think you need to think differently about who you are and everyone else around you. We are all reflections of God's greatness like a hundred buckets of water all reflecting the same moon. Because we are all created with imperfections we all suffer from ourselves and from other people's imperfections. In spite of all this, we are all experiencing slivers of God's greatness in different ways. But essentially, we are all the same exact person experiencing God but differently through our imperfections.

The choice each of us makes is do we still love and appreciate God in spite of our own imperfections and everyone else's imperfections. I think what is important in making the choice is having faith that you will have moments of experiencing slivers of God's Greatness that make all the suffering irrelevant.

I know the bible says in the end times God will do his final justice once and for all and make things right. However, that will still involve a lot of people going to hell, and I don't understand why he must let us suffer this way, until then.

I had a friend who died 10 years ago who lived everyday convinced the second coming of Jesus was going to occur in his lifetime. I think everyone on the planet will be long dead before the end times ever occur. There is one thing I have absolute faith about people is that people love to copulate. There are 7 billion people on the planet for a reason. No matter how much people continue to pray for the end-times and wish everything comes to an end there is probably an equal if not larger number of people raising little children with absolute conviction God will provide many blessings and abundance for their loved ones.

Not looking to argue or get into anything, as religious discussions tend to go... just really, honestly looking for answers.
Hoping someone can help me understand these things.
Thank you.

If you want answers it will not come from reading someone else's thoughts on these questions. If you want real answers you have to compose and write your own answer to these questions. The only way you ever really learn anything is to write about it. If you really want to understand religion then create your own religion. And even further, what solidifies your understanding about a subject of understanding even more than writing about it is teaching about it! Teaching something live to other people burns the understanding of what you are talking about to the core of your being.

 

[Thief]

Lately I've been resonating with the ideas of Apophatic theology.

so... like the devil in the preamble of Job?

 

[dfnj]

Well, if she is interested perhaps breaking it down to smaller questions instead of trying to eat the whole enchilada at once. Personally, Judaism and Islam have both helped me understand the things that bothered me about Christianity.

So the answer to all that is divine is Mexican food. This is exactly what I've suspected all along!

 

[dfnj]

so... like the devil in the preamble of Job?

Satan, like many people in our lives, only take away from you what you let them. I say don't let them!

I do my very best not to judge any part of God's creation as not being anything other than perfect. By being so, it helps me not to miss a single instance of God's blessings coming my way!

 

[MonkeyFire]

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?

To love hell and give a place for haters to call home. People die but only because they are bigots.

 

[ManSinha]

OP asks: "If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?"

I believe there is a Hell because those who do evil have a place where they can't cause the people who love goodness any trouble. There is an old saying: you can't please all the people all the time. This also answers the question: "Why is there evil on the earth." So that those who are evil can have a life.

I believe it is difficult to judge who is needless and innocent. God decides that. The truth is I have no need to die at present but God does not necessarily cater to my needs. Usually innocent people die because there is evil in the world.

How does that explain losses suffered by the innocent such as those lost in plane crashes or the wildfires? There is no evil per se behind that

 

[ManSinha]

Hello,
I have some questions, that I can't find the answers to. (I'm still learning.)
I've been studying and asking God to show me answers to these questions, and yet I'm still so lost.
Hoping someone can help me out a little.

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

Also, why is there a hell? The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died. Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience. How is this love?
The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist? Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?
He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not? Should he not have interfered, then?
Also, being all-knowing, should he not have seen this all coming and prevented it?
Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?
Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will? It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?
I know the bible says in the end times God will do his final justice once and for all and make things right. However, that will still involve a lot of people going to hell, and I don't understand why he must let us suffer this way, until then.

Not looking to argue or get into anything, as religious discussions tend to go... just really, honestly looking for answers.
Hoping someone can help me understand these things.
Thank you.

Another way to look at it is this - "God" is neither interactive nor is it some super being with human characteristics and tendencies. Once you wrap your mind around that - it may start to get a little easier to understand

 

[Fiddle DD]

Ask @nPeace

 

[sooda]

How does that explain losses suffered by the innocent such as those lost in plane crashes or the wildfires? There is no evil per se behind that

Why then should it have been upon them, of all people in the world, that this tower of Siloam had fallen?

The Tower of Siloam was a structure which fell upon 18 people, killing them. Siloam is a neighborhood south of Jerusalem's Old City. In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus refers to the tower's collapse and the death of the 18 in a discourse on the need for individual repentance for sin.

The incident is mentioned only once in the New Testament, in Luke 13:4, as part of a section with examples inviting repentance contained in verses 13:1-5.

Siloam is a pool in Jerusalem where Jesus cured a man of his blindness (John 9)

Luke 13:4

Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem?

Berean Literal Bible Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: Do you think that these were debtors beyond all the men dwelling in Jerusalem?

 

[Remté]

How does that explain losses suffered by the innocent such as those lost in plane crashes or the wildfires? There is no evil per se behind that

How do you know?