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Featured I have a question for Deeje.And all other jws and non jws

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    Officially methodist.But goes back and forth between the idea of the soul with methodism and jehovah's witness.
    I was waiting for someone to go to the above website in this post and comment on it.
     
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Frank, hope you're well.

    Tell me, how can you reconcile the Resurrection (which comes at a later time - John 6:44), and the belief of immediate afterlife?

    If after death a person keeps living, then the Resurrection means nothing...it's useless.

    "What Does 'Resurrect' Mean?
    Nobody can really understand the Bible and its promises unless they understand the resurrection, because it appears to be the only hope of life after death that God offered to humans. So we can say that the resurrection is a principal doctrine of the Bible. And if a person believes in the resurrection, it is impossible to believe in the ancient pagan doctrine of the immortality of the human soul, because the two terms have opposite meanings… immortal means undying and resurrect implies being brought back to life. For if you can't die, you can't be resurrected. Notice that the words resurrect and resurrection are found dozens of times in the Bible. However, the term immortal soul can't be found there at all.

    The English word resurrect means to re-erect or, to make something stand upright again. So when it is used to speak of a dead person, it means that he or she will come back to life and stand erect as a human once again; for the meaning is almost the same as the Greek word that resurrect(ion) is translated from, ana/stasia, or, again stand.

    Of course, there are several accounts of resurrections in the Bible. For example, the Prophets EliJah and EliSha performed resurrections. Jesus was recorded to have performed at least three resurrections (the son of a widow at Nain, JaIrus' daughter, and Lazarus). Paul resurrected a young boy who fell from a high window during an all-night speech, and Peter resurrected a faithful Christian woman named Dorcas. Of course, Jesus himself was resurrected, which Paul points out, is the basis ofor our hope in a resurrection. Yet, recognize that all these resurrections (except the resurrection of Jesus) were temporary, since the bodies that were brought back to life were still corruptible (aging and dying).

    hereafter. For they believed that when they died, they just went to sleep with their ancestors (Genesis 47:30), where they waited in the place of the dead (heb. Sheol, gr. Hades), during which time they would be unaware of what was going on around them (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10). Then it was their hope that they would be remembered and be allowed to stand up again (be resurrected) on this earth (not become angels and fly away into heaven)."

    -- Excerpt from
    The Resurrection
     
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  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why?
    Why is that website important? Is it the Bible you are interested in, or the website?
    You asked for my response on scripture, and I responded. So would you not agree, it would be the right and honest thing to consider the response, and respond to it?
    I want to be fair to you. I hope you'll be fair to me. :frowning:
     
  4. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply.I guess it really isn't that much of a deal is someone reads the website or not.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So will you answer my questions? It would mean a lot to me, to know what your response would be.
     
  6. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    To answer your question about the website.I just came across it one day and it kinda got to me.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I was really asking for answers to the questions here?
    I'm sorry if you feel pressed to answer, but I want to be fair to you.
    So I just want to give you a chance to answer, if you are going to - which I was really hoping you would.
    Would you like to, or not at this point?
     
  8. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    To your first question.Ecclesiastes 9:5 explains this quite well.To your second question the book of Deuteronomy 18:10-13 clearly points out contacting the dead is a sin.
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    "And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, "We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. So you agree that the dead cannot communicate with anyone or anything, because they cease to exist. They are lifeless.

    Therefore, any "spirit(s)" one communicates with then, is/are the one(s) responsible for all those things God condemns - divination, magic, omens, sorcery, spells, spirit mediums, fortune-tellers, inquires of the dead - spiritism.
    It definitely is not one of Jehovah's faithful angels, because God no longer communicates to us in that way - Hebrews 1:1, 2

    I'm glad to know we finally are clear on what the Bible says about the dead... or are we...:)
     
  11. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Are you found to be in sin if the dead(a spirit)contacts you?
     
  12. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Frank Goad

    REGARDING ACTS 23:6-9 from a non- jehovah's witness

    Frank, you seem to really, really want opinions on this scripture. This is the second thread you started on the subject. I replied in your first thread, but, in case you did not see it, I will re-post my opinion here in this thread on the same subject.

    I pointed out that the context is important. Paul is relating his story of the vision of Jesus to him while he was on the road to Damascus at least partly to testify that Jesus was resurrected and lived after his death.

    Acts 22 – Paul relates : Vs 6, “…As I made my journey….a great light from heaven suddenly shone…vs 7 And I heard a voice saying to me…. Vs 8…”Who are you Lord”….”I am Jesus of Nazareth….”

    Later he tells his audience about another revelation he has. Vs 17…”I fell into a trance 18 and saw him (Jesus) saying to me…get quickly out of Jerusalem."

    Still later, Paul is speaking to the Jewish council made up of a mixture of those who believe in resurrection and angelic messengers and spirits (pharisees) and those who did not believe in these things (sadducees).

    In this setting, Pauls’ claim to have seen a resurrected being quickly becomes a battle over doctrinal support between these opposing beliefs and thus, the pharisees suddenly “find no fault” in Paul and they reason that “What if a spirit of an angel spoke to him?”. I believe the Pharisees want to use Pauls experience as a dogmatic pawn as evidence that spirits of men exist and thus their doctrine is correct and the Saducees are incorrect. It has nothing to do with “evil spirits” or "evil angels". The early Judeo-Christian literature is clear that the early doctrine that spirits of mankind existed independently of their body was the most commonly held belief and the Pharisees were using Pauls actual experience of communicating with an actual spirit as evidence of this doctrine. In this case Paul WAS communicating with a person whose body had died.

    This is my current model of what is happening.

    Good luck in coming to your own conclusions @Frank Goad

    Clear
    σεακσιω
     
    #32 Clear, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    The fact is, there are verses that say 'eternal' type of hell, considering the persona, or soul. Now, if we believe that one simply sleeps until a time of "heaven", then at some point, if ones destiny is hell, then they encounter that 'eternal' nature of hell.
    Comparing verses, we have 'eternal hell', and, 'annihilation that implies 'eternal annihilation'.

    Hence, no eternal nature of some type of hell, is contradicting the Bible, and thusly, 'annihilation' must mean 'eternal annihilation', in other words...hell.

    Whether that actually answers your premise, though...that's another matter.
     
    #33 Desert Snake, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  14. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    REGARDING LUKE 24: 36 from a non Jehovah`s Witness : And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



    @Frank Goad :

    I JUST notice your O.P. in THIS thread refers to THREE scriptures instead of only Acts 23.

    It’s 2:41 a.m. but I thought I would take time to comment on Luke 23:36-39. (I just got up for a glass of water so I will discuss your last scripture later). Again, HISTORICAL Context has to provide some background to this scripture rather than any modern dogma. You will have to consider what was taking place INSIDE the ancient context for the Jewish Apostles. The Ancient Jews and Early Christians in the earliest period were speaking from their belief that spirits animated the body and the spirits of mankind were separate from the bodies they animated. However, the early judeo-Christian belief was that a spirit had a shape and looked liked a body (as opposed to say, a nebulous "cloud").

    For example, the Jewish Zohar explains : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the spirits which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each spirit was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world.” The Zohar – (The Destiny of the Soul)

    Technically, the word "Soul" referred to a living person, a body AND a spirit. Just like the simple statement in the gospel of Phillip indicates : “ The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit. “ (Often "spirit" is rendered "soul" depending upon the translator and source document).

    The Christian texts agree with the Jewish Texts on this point that the spirit of a person was believed to LOOK like the persons body. “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. And from one to the other there is no discrepancy, not so much as a third of a hair,… And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil…” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5;

    The Jewish rechabites discuss the orthodox belief about what happened when one of their brethren died : “9 And then the spirit of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God with joy. 10 But we with one accord see the spirit when it leaves the body clearly and plainly; the appearance of the spirit when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body, and it is spiritually flying. History of the Rechabites 15:9-10; The context of such early texts represents the Jewish belief that the spirit resembles the body it inhabits.

    Your Methodist belief regarding Ecclesiates is actually similar to the Jewish belief, thus it was said : "Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the spirit, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

    This is the Jewish context of biblical Ecclesiates 12 :6-7 where we are told to remember God before our death and the body returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God from which it came. “Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, and the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the wheel broken at the well, and the dust (body) returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Eccl 12:6-7)

    Jewish Zohar similarly, speaks of the spirit which leaves this world but is preserved as it awaits ultimate resurrection. “And when such a spirit departs from this world, pure, bright, unblemished, the Holy One, be blessed, daily causes her to shine with a host of radiances and proclaims concerning him: ‘ Here is the spirit of my son, such and such: let him be preserved for the body from which he has departed.’ Zohar (The Destiny of the Soul)

    The Jewish Talmudic teachings about judgment of the person discuss ultimate judgment inside this early belief that the person consisted of both a BODY and a SPIRIT and that neither will be judged separately. For example the Babylonian Talmud explains the Apocryphon of Ezekiel (Frag one, ch2) point on this subject by pointing out : “The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird”

    Ultimately in the resurrection he will judge both spirit and body as a single unit as they rejoin in a resurrection, and the spirit is recalled from heaven and the dead body is recalled from the earth. Thus it says : “He will call to the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ –this to the body.” (Apocryphon of Ezekiel Frag one, ch2 - explanation from the Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b; )

    The context of what is happening to the spirit in this world seems, partly for the spirit of mankind to learn at a basic level regarding how to interact with both batter and with each other. We are to take care of the spirit within us, we are to educate it, improve upon it, learn higher levels of social and moral behaviors. This it was said : “The Torah, counsel of the entire world, saw this and cried to mankind : “Behold, see how the Holy One, be blessed, takes pity on you! Without cost, he has sent to you his costly pearl, that you may use it in this world and it is the sacred spirit (we are given)” The Zohar

    This context of being given a body and learning to overcome it’s tendencies is the lesson underlying the various texts which refer to this mortal life as a tutoring experience, For example, speaking of spirits of mankind this life is described as a “school”.

    “… the spirit of the female and the spirit of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps. It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. In this wise, the Holy One, be blessed, possessed a son from the matron, that is, the supernal holy soul. He despatched it to a village, that is, to this world, to be raised in it, and initiated into the ways of the King’s palace. Informed that his son was now come to maturity, and should be returned to the palace, the King, out of love, sent the matron for him to bring him into the palace. …. “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, for on them the upper and lower beings are based. Hence it stands written : ‘The righteous is the foundation of the world’ [Prov. 10:25].” Jewish ZOHAR (A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)


    The base point here is that we must look at the scriptures NOT through OUR own theology and OUR own biases, but rather through the historical theology that existed in the religion and beliefs of the ancient apostles if we are to understand THEIR statements and THEIR beliefs regarding the spirits of mankind and their initial BELIEF that they had seen a spirit of a person.


    In any case, good luck coming to your own decisions about what such verses mean. I am tired and will discuss your last scripture you mentioned tomorrow. I am off to bed.


    Clear
    σιτωσεω
     
    #34 Clear, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Personally, I have no particular belief nor disbelief in ghosts as I don't see any evidence one way or the other.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?
     
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