I hate myself

[Shushersbedamned]

A definition that accounts for emotion, volition, and action. Most people limit it to one of those things. I'd argue that animals don't really love, they just screw around.

I'd argue that they do.

 

[RedDragon94]

I'd argue that they do.

Based upon what?

 

[Shushersbedamned]

Based upon what?

Well dolphins for instance can commit suicide after losing a loved one. Also the affection some animal feel to others is something comparable to love. Like rats when they are put into a high walled container, build pyramids so the top ones can escape. Pigeons also can learn to feel affection to a human being.

 

[stvdv]

Philos and eros may be, but agape is not

Thank you, I didn't know this one:
Agape is a Greco-Christian term referring to love, "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God".

I always use "LOVE" or "Love" to distinguish Divine Love from worldly love.

Q1: If it's Love of God for man and of man for God", I think you can't compare these 2, because God's LOVE is so much more than how we can Love God.
Q2: And charity is good, but still human to human love (or to animals). Unless you see the other human as a divine creation then it can fit in "the love of God for man and of man for God".
Q3: Of course charity needs to be without ego to be pure, again very difficult. Many charity projects have names engraved instead of being anonimous.

So even then Agape seems not very accurate for me.
In India they use Prema "Divine Love". That's very clear to me. You have a Greek word for that also?

Edit: @SB: Divine Love: Universal Love. Unconditional Love. Without Ego. Always Forgiving......

 

[Shushersbedamned]

I always use "LOVE" or "Love" to distinguish Divine Love from worldly love.

Divine love?

 

[RedDragon94]

Well dolphins for instance can commit suicide after losing a loved one. Also the affection some animal feel to others is something comparable to love. Like rats when they are put into a high walled container, build pyramids so the top ones can escape. Pigeons also can learn to feel affection to a human being.

"Palmer concludes that in the end, it’s not really possible to tell if the animals are actually killing themselves in the sense that a human might, since “suicide involves a set of higher-order cognitive abilities. It requires an awareness of one’s own existence, an ability to speculate about the future, and the knowledge that an act will result in death” — and we don’t know if animals can do all of that."
"Failure to thrive — which may be brought on by the stress of captivity, a marine mammologist for the Humane Society told PBS — can be thought of as a form of suicide, Marino says."
What It Means To Say A Dolphin Committed Suicide
There is no consensus on that issue.

All species know the meaning of survival. That doesn't mean they have all of the human emotions. Their brains would be bigger if they did. I already know animals can get attached to humans, but that's only cause they see the same person every day. Heck, if I were a dolphin and a human trapped me, raped me, and then abandoned me for another human I'd hold my breath too.

 

[Shushersbedamned]

"Palmer concludes that in the end, it’s not really possible to tell if the animals are actually killing themselves in the sense that a human might, since “suicide involves a set of higher-order cognitive abilities. It requires an awareness of one’s own existence, an ability to speculate about the future, and the knowledge that an act will result in death” — and we don’t know if animals can do all of that."
"Failure to thrive — which may be brought on by the stress of captivity, a marine mammologist for the Humane Society told PBS — can be thought of as a form of suicide, Marino says."
What It Means To Say A Dolphin Committed Suicide
There is no consensus on that issue.

All species know the meaning of survival. That doesn't mean they have all of the human emotions. Their brains would be bigger if they did. I already know animals can get attached to humans, but that's only cause they see the same person every day. Heck, if I were a dolphin and a human trapped me, raped me, and then abandoned me for another human I'd hold my breath too.

You can of course say they don't love they just feel affection.

But what is love but affection? I call love love bc it seems to me like love.

 

[RedDragon94]

You can of course say they don't love they just feel affection.

But what is love but affection? I call love love bc it seems to me like love.

Sacrifice. That's what love is also, not just affection. That's merely emotion.

 

[Jumi]

No use saying sorry when you're sorry

 

[Shushersbedamned]

Sacrifice. That's what love is also, not just affection. That's merely emotion.

That's merely someone's definition of love

 

[Trailblazer]

To view God as one who hates you when you're less than perfect, and loves you when you are, is unhealthy to say the least. It is damaging to one's spiritual well-being, their psychological well-being, as well as their physical well-being, considering all of these are interconnected with each other. Hatred withers the soul, Love unfolds it. God's Love is Unconditional, as Love is the Being of God itself.

Now, as far as self-love first goes, that is absolutely correct and necessary. You have to have Light shining in your own heart first, before you can see another with that Light. That Light has to first be known to you. And if you literally hate yourself, you are living in darkness and cannot see Light in order to let that Love flow through you to another.

Letting that Love flow through you is exactly what Jesus taught in this two Great Commandments. "Love God" first, as that is the Source of Love, which means it fills you up to overflowing with that love, which means you accept and love yourself, see yourself, embrace yourself, and know yourself as God sees, embraces, knows, and loves you. Then as a result, that Love, not egoic-love, but Divine Love, flows through you as a conduit to others, thus fulfilling all the Law - you love your neighbor, as yourself. As an extension, a continuation of the Love you know in yourself. If you hate yourself, you block God, and the entire chain of sequence falls flat at the outset.

That sequence, Love God and love others, has you in the middle. You have to be filled first, before it is possible for it to flow through you. If not, you've shoved a cork in the flow and blocked God in yourself, in your self-loathing and self-hatred. And that self-loathing then gets projected onto others, as your shadow, and all is darkness. This verse here should capture this well:

In my opinion, you are right about everything you said but do you have ANY IDEA what it feels like to tell someone who is depressed to love themselves? Do you understand that people who hate themselves are depressed on some level? They might not even recognize that if they have been depressed for a long time and it has become a way of life. They really cannot even understand what others are telling them, it does not reach them. It is just words on a page.

“Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

So people who are all cheerful and full of glee only make depressed people feel worse, not better, because what goes on consciously or subconsciously is that they compare themselves to those people who are so happy and it makes them feel all the worse. Maybe that is not true for all depressed people but it is true for some. All people are different so it is never good to generalize.

I know that you and some others on this thread re just trying to help, but what these people need are compassion and understanding, not a lecture about how much God Loves them.

I understand that you have experienced God’s Love but not all people have experienced that. I believe what you say is true about God’s Love because it is a teaching of my religion, but I have to say I have never experienced it and I am not alone.

I have a lot of atheist friends who believe god is not benevolent and is possibly even malevolent owing to their life experiences and what they see around them, all the suffering in the world. I cannot disagree with them for as the expression goes, something is bad at Black Rock when a benevolent and omnipotent God allows so much suffering in the world.

Sure, we are promised it will all be over when we die, but till then what do you expect these people to do? The clincher is that they are surrounded by people who are happy and do not have a clue what they are enduring, and most people do not care because most people are selfish in a me-first kind of way. However, I see a lot of people on this forum who seem to care and that is heartwarming and restores my faith in humanity.

I would never blame a depressed person for being depressed; that is cruel and mean. What about Alzheimer’s and cancer? Why does a Loving God allow that? I do not care what scriptures say, be they the Bible or the Baha’i Writings. Those are just words on a page. What others say about God’s Love are also just words, and they are meaningless to those who have never experienced God’s Love.

You said: "Love God" first, as that is the Source of Love, which means it fills you up to overflowing with that love, which means you accept and love yourself, see yourself, embrace yourself, and know yourself as God sees, embraces, knows, and loves you. Then as a result, that Love, not egoic-love, but Divine Love, flows through you as a conduit to others, thus fulfilling all the Law - you love your neighbor, as yourself.

I can agree with that, but what if one cannot love God first? Baha’is just love to quote these Hidden Words:

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

So the deal is, God says to Love me first and then I will Love you back. Love me even though you have no reason to Love me because I have never experienced your Love. Love me because the Bible and the Baha’i Writings tell you I am a Loving God and they tell you to Love me.

Love cannot be forced or willed so where does that leave those people who cannot Love God?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"Palmer concludes that in the end, it’s not really possible to tell if the animals are actually killing themselves in the sense that a human might, since “suicide involves a set of higher-order cognitive abilities. It requires an awareness of one’s own existence, an ability to speculate about the future, and the knowledge that an act will result in death” — and we don’t know if animals can do all of that."
"Failure to thrive — which may be brought on by the stress of captivity, a marine mammologist for the Humane Society told PBS — can be thought of as a form of suicide, Marino says."
What It Means To Say A Dolphin Committed Suicide
There is no consensus on that issue.

All species know the meaning of survival. That doesn't mean they have all of the human emotions. Their brains would be bigger if they did. I already know animals can get attached to humans, but that's only cause they see the same person every day. Heck, if I were a dolphin and a human trapped me, raped me, and then abandoned me for another human I'd hold my breath too.

Obviously non-human animals experience emotions. Love is primarily bonding, feelings of affection and care for another another being. Non-human animals certainly demonstrate all those things. I don't know why humans like to act like other animals are a bunch of dumb robots. We're more alike than different. Whales, for example, are known to create very complex social units and to even have cultures. Of course the mourning and grief rituals of elephants are legendary. Even birds grieve when they lose their mate. I recall a cat from my grandfather's house that roamed the neighborhood killed a male cardinal in pur backyard and his mate kept trying to attack my mom as she was burying him. She was keeping a vigil of sorts over his body. One of my cats appeared to be depressed when her mother died, too.

 

[Jumi]

Obviously non-human animals experience emotions. Love is primarily bonding, feelings of affection and care for another another being. Non-human animals certainly demonstrate all those things. I don't know why humans like to act like other animals are a bunch of dumb robots. We're more alike than different. Whales, for example, are known to create very complex social units and to even have cultures. Of course the mourning and grief rituals of elephants are legendary. Even birds grieve when they lose their mate. I recall a cat from my grandfather's house that roamed the neighborhood killed a male cardinal in pur backyard and his mate kept trying to attack my mom as she was burying him. She was keeping a vigil of sorts over his body. One of my cats appeared to be depressed when her mother died, too.

I've seen it with my own pets, how they grieve for their departed friend and mate. It's the saddest thing to see, much sadder than any funeral I've been to.

Many people just lack empathy or contact with animals. Personal trauma can factor in. I didn't like dogs for a long time because some fool tried to scare me with a criminally mistreated dog when I was a little kid, although I had a puppy as a friend before that... While I always liked animals, it took me a long time before I started getting along with dogs again. It's the "owners" of biting dogs that should be put down, but sadly it's the dog that suffers from a bad owner.

 

[Windwalker]

So people who are all cheerful and full of glee only make depressed people feel worse, not better, because what goes on consciously or subconsciously is that they compare themselves to those people who are so happy and it makes them feel all the worse.

Nothing I was saying was being "all cheerful and full of glee". I was not saying "be happy". I was saying, "You are loved, and you need to find how to accept that you are loved and love yourself." That is what you do in fact tell a depressed person who feels isolated and despondent. they need to hear that, and eventually, even if on faith at that moment, that they can learn to love themselves. That's good news! That offers hope.

I'm not sure why you interpreted being "all cheerful and full of glee" with what I was saying about loving yourself. They are not the same thing at all. I can in fact feel quite unhappy at a time in my life, even for weeks, months, or even years, and still learn to love myself the whole time. The right thing to tell some like this is to look to love. Hold themselves with that gentleness, respect, and Grace that God does them. Right?

I know that you and some others on this thread re just trying to help, but what these people need are compassion and understanding, not a lecture about how much God Loves them.

You really think that's what my post was doing? I'll suggest you made a bad assumption about me.

I understand that you have experienced God’s Love but not all people have experienced that. I believe what you say is true about God’s Love because it is a teaching of my religion, but I have to say I have never experienced it and I am not alone.

I actually said that in this thread to Axe Elf, in response to what he said that God can hate people. I was not saying that to the OP about his self-hatred. I wouldn't do that. But for Axe Elf who imagined God is actually capable of hatred, then if he had ever experience God, that wouldn't even be a thought of any imagination. There is no darkness in God. There cannot be.

Sure, we are promised it will all be over when we die, but till then what do you expect these people to do? The clincher is that they are surrounded by people who are happy and do not have a clue what they are enduring, and most people do not care because most people are selfish in a me-first kind of way. However, I see a lot of people on this forum who seem to care and that is heartwarming and restores my faith in humanity.

I agree telling people everything will be fixed in the afterlife is not the right thing to do, for anyone. I of course would never say this to anyone. But to tell someone that they should learn to love themselves, that I would say. Because that is here and now, and if they believe in God, then at least hold in their mind's that God loves them, even when they can't figure out how to for themselves.

The only reason I got into all that other stuff, which you imagined to be a "lecture", was not in response to the OP, but to Axe Elf's wrong ideas that the Bible teaches you that you should hate yourself. That was who I was writing this to, if you followed the quotes of who I was quoting in my responses.

I would never blame a depressed person for being depressed; that is cruel and mean. What about Alzheimer’s and cancer? Why does a Loving God allow that?

While we're at me correcting your incorrect assumptions about me, let me throw this into this conversation. I've had to deal with depression myself.

Again, this stuff addressed to me asking me questions to ask myself about "Why does a loving God allow for that," I do not think of God in these terms as the Parent with a Plan, stuff. I don't think of God in anthropomorphic terms. I don't see God as some entity in space somewhere looking down on mankind in its foibles. Rather, to me God is All That Is, and is Infinite in Power, Infinite in Love, is in all, and through all, and is all. Who I am is an expression of That which is Eternal. And who I am, is not, and cannot, ever, at at time, even in my darkest moments of depression, be other to that, outside of that Love. It is utterly impossible.

It may feel like that, because in our imagination, the darkness of our thoughts we close in ourselves, blocking our own sight of that Eternal Love that is never apart from us, and that leads to depression, indeed. But it is good to remember at such times, that within us there is that hope, that life-sustaining Love that is at all times fully ours, if we simply open our hands and welcome it. I say this as much to myself as anyone. And you don't have to even believe in God, as such. It's a matter of just accepting Life, as it is. That all is Light, when we are able to open ourselves, and all that that takes to come to that place. No one is claiming this is easy.

I do not care what scriptures say, be they the Bible or the Baha’i Writings. Those are just words on a page. What others say about God’s Love are also just words, and they are meaningless to those who have never experienced God’s Love.

If this is true as you say, then why did you join the Baha'i's? You claim you've never experienced this, yet something must have been meaningful enough for you to do what you're doing to find it, right?

You said: "Love God" first, as that is the Source of Love, which means it fills you up to overflowing with that love, which means you accept and love yourself, see yourself, embrace yourself, and know yourself as God sees, embraces, knows, and loves you. Then as a result, that Love, not egoic-love, but Divine Love, flows through you as a conduit to others, thus fulfilling all the Law - you love your neighbor, as yourself.

I can agree with that, but what if one cannot love God first? Baha’is just love to quote these Hidden Words:



4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

So the deal is, God says to Love me first and then I will Love you back.

NO! Emphatically, NO. God is Love. Even when we don't love God, God is never anywhere but fully there, and IS that Love already fully there in you. It is unconditional, NOT conditional as in your example. That is not divine love, that is egoic desires for the self, that someone is projecting onto God because that is what they themselves do.

The reason you are supposed to Love God first, is because when you do, you access that Love that is already inside you! That's how you get to it! You open to it. And that opening can take many forms, and all be understood as "loving God". Seek the Source of that Eternal Love, and in so doing you open yourself to it. It fills you, and then flows forth from you to the world, like all of Creation springs forth from the Love that is God. You literally become God in the world, expressing that Source of Love through you.

Us loving or not loving God is really more a matter of opening or closing the spigot on a full Water pot. The Water is always there ready to pour. You just have to turn the valve. It's not a matter of the Water deciding whether or not it's going to pour because you've not been a good person, or something like that.

Love me even though you have no reason to Love me because I have never experienced your Love. Love me because the Bible and the Baha’i Writings tell you I am a Loving God and they tell you to Love me.

Love cannot be forced or willed so where does that leave those people who cannot Love God?

And none of what you describe here describes God.

 

[Axe Elf]

Not necessarily. Jesus didn’t love us because he hated himself, he loved us because of empathy, because he felt the pain of the world. The bible literally says love the neighbor as the self, that’s empathy.

You're still stuck in the common definition of "hate" and not the Biblical sense of "loving less" that I was going for.

 

[Quagmire]

A lot of people confuse self-indulgence for self-love, which is crazy because they're pretty much exact opposites.

A lot of people mistake self-importance for self-love too, which is just as crazy but a lot funnier.

 

[Shushersbedamned]

It's the "owners" of biting dogs that should be put down, but sadly it's the dog that suffers from a bad owner.

We had a dog when I was a child... It was misbehaving and we couldn't treat it so as someone should have maybe. Or maybe it was not a dog optimal to a large family with children. In any case, though nothing extreme happened and most part of the dogs life was good, I always think of it back with shame. Though I was the youngest and had hardly understanding enough or power over others to do anything about it.

 

[Axe Elf]

It is certainly not possible. God is Love. There is no hatred in the nature of God. Light drives out all darkness. Have you ever experienced the Presence of God?

Now you're just arguing with scripture, not with me.

"These six things the Lord hates, indeed, seven are an abomination to Him" --Proverbs 6:16

"yet I loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau" --Malachi 1:2-3

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." --Romans 9:13

So, metaphorically speaking, by way of contrast, "hatred" is meant to convey that the love with which one love's God needs to be that much greater than the way we normally love others in our lives, operating out of our typical egoic self-seeking interests?

Yes, the Biblical sense of "hate" that I was going for means "to love less."

Yes, metaphorical hatred is not the same as actually hating yourself. If you understand this, then it is irresponsible to tell someone who is struggling with actual self-hatred that that is biblical. It is not. It is contrary to everything taught in the Christian message of love and forgiveness.

To view God as one who hates you when you're less than perfect, and loves you when you are, is unhealthy to say the least. It is damaging to one's spiritual well-being, their psychological well-being, as well as their physical well-being, considering all of these are interconnected with each other. Hatred withers the soul, Love unfolds it. God's Love is Unconditional, as Love is the Being of God itself.

Well, the OP merely said "Any questions?" under the title, "I Hate Myself." As the first responder, I asked the question if that's what he meant by "hate"--the Biblical sense of "to love less:--and if so, applauded him on his achievement. So all this other nonsense about actual self-hatred, and a God who only loves you when you're perfect, is unwarranted and extraneous.

Do keep in mind, however, that hatred is not the opposite of love--as we see in scripture, even God hates. The opposite of love is selfishness. It is our selfish human nature that fundamentally separates us from God and His nature of love.

I do not see the need to read this literally.

That's because you're trying to say that God does not hate, so your answer to scripture that says explicitly that God DOES hate is to say that's not really what it means.

And that's NOT really what it means when it comes to Esau--"hate" really only means "to love less." But the six things that God hates--that's the more common meaning that we understand today--so even that kind of hate is a part of God's nature.

This is where you're getting stuck about loving yourself as opposed to hating yourself, too--you're not thinking of hating yourself in terms of "loving yourself less"; you're thinking of really despising yourself--and that's not what I'm talking about.

Hopefully, this begins to make more sense to you now.

 

[Axe Elf]

There is absolutely no need to "hate" yourself. "Love yourself less" in a particular sense I can see... but "hating" yourself is a complete contradiction to nature. Meaning that I don't believe one can find a balanced state of mind/being/emotion while "hating" oneself. Even if only because it cuts against the grain of our animal self-preservation instinct.

Do you think a dog, cat, cow, sheep, pig, bear, etc. EVER "hate" themselves? They don't even have the concept available to them... that's how unnatural something like that is.

I keep emphasizing that I have been talking about the Biblical sense of hate, which is "to love less," but y'all still want to try to argue the point using a different definition of the word "hate."

 

[Trackdayguy]

This post is a joke. Had it been serious, the response from the poster would have been more engaging