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I guess this is the current state of creationism

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
This is nothing more than the same old bluster.....tantrums don't answer questions. I am deliberately showing the readers here that your evidence is not "objective"....it is not "verifiable"....and it is not "empirical or measurable". You can jump up and down about it all you like, but you cannot convince anyone just by the "evidence".......for the simple fact that there is no real evidence.
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You haven't shown any such thing.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I'm 50 years old, which means I've seen how creationism has evolved (HAH) over the last several decades. I can remember elementary school in the 1970's where teaching Christianity and the Bible in a public school was just assumed and there was little if any controversy. I remember in 4th grade us doing a skit about a newspaper reporter doing interviews right before Noah's flood. I remember in middle school and high school us not covering evolution in science classes because (according to the teachers) it was "too controversial" and some of them specifically saying that since it contradicted the Bible, it was necessarily wrong. I even remember in high school a couple of mandatory assemblies where "scientific creationists" would give presentations on young-earth creationism and how "true science" supported it.

As I was finishing up college the ID creationism movement was just beginning and by the time I started working it was getting a fair bit of interest from the media. Of course ID creationism died a quick death in the Dover, PA trial in 2005.

So over my lifetime, I've seen creationism go from overtly teaching "this is what the Bible says so it's true", to "the accounts in the Bible are scientifically supported", to "teach the controversy", to "complexity = a designer", to it's current state.

And what is its current state? Judging by the consistent theme I see from creationists in this and other forums, it seems to have been reduced to the rather simplistic argument of "challenge evolutionists to prove their claims to a 100% degree of certainty, and when they don't do that declare it to be a faith, no different than any other belief system".

That appears to be it. I've honestly not seen much of anything else from creationists in quite a while. I think we science advocates should take this as a positive development. This really is all they have left, which means the current declining trend is very likely to continue.


I am 67 yrs old, and back when I was much younger and raised in a Christian home and went to church every Sunday.

As I was taught by the Christian Church, that the earth is 6000 yrs old.

Then when started school in the 8th grade,
My science teacher brought up about the dinosaurs bones and how they were Millions if not Billions of years old.


As I sat there listening to him and the others disputing with each other over the age of the Dinosaurs bones.

This was very first time I ever heard about dinosaurs.
But I started to question to myself, As to how can something that is to be a Millions to billions of years old fit into the earth which is to be 6000 years old.

Over the years every once in a while I would think about this and when I would ask other Christians about this, they would say, Hey it's just a trick or the Dinosaurs bones just happened.

Which I could not accept either answer.

When I was around 15 or 16 I started to study the Bible and then when I was about 45 years old, I found within the pages of the bible.
To where the earth is not 6000 yrs old, But Millions of years old, That there were an earth age way before this earth age came to be they we live in now.

And this earth age of a Millions of years ago, Is where the dinosaurs bones came from.

You see everyone including scientist are under this thing of the earth as being only 6000 years old. So the scientist set out to try and disprove that the earth is more than 6000 years old.

But not realizing nor understand what the Bible actually does say about how old the earth is exactly.
Supports the scientist claim that the earth is Millions of years old.

And refutes Christians claim the earth as being only 6000 years old.

Within the bible, it speaks about a world that then was and what happened and what caused that world that then was to Perished.

What people don't come to realize is that, there were two floods of water that came upon the earth.
The first flood of water to come upon the earth, was way before this world came to be. Which takes us back a Million years ago.

The Bible speaks about this flood of water.

This flood of water happened Millions of years before the flood of Noah's.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Who said it is cruel to kill animals? People kill animals and poultry for food by the thousands every day. As long as it is done humanely, no one is complaining except perhaps the vegans among us. God authorized the killing of animals for only two reasons....food and sacrifice.
Why on earth would god need blood sacrifices?

If god is an ineffable spirit, doesn’t need to eat and drink, then the blood sacrifices are just senseless acts of barbarism, based on nothing more than superstitions.

You would think that if the god of your bible was superior over deities of other religions, then it would not have same superstitious customs as their neighbours, eg the Egyptians, the Canaanites, Babylonians, etc.

The absurdity is that god required some sorts of sacrifices to show devotion, loyalty or obedience, hardly seem to make your god any more superior than Ra, Enlil, Zeus, when it is doing the same gig as every other religions before Judaism and Christianity.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I am 67 yrs old, and back when I was much younger and raised in a Christian home and went to church every Sunday.

As I was taught by the Christian Church, that the earth is 6000 yrs old.

Then when started school in the 8th grade,
My science teacher brought up about the dinosaurs bones and how they were Millions if not Billions of years old.


As I sat there listening to him and the others disputing with each other over the age of the Dinosaurs bones.

This was very first time I ever heard about dinosaurs.
But I started to question to myself, As to how can something that is to be a Millions to billions of years old fit into the earth which is to be 6000 years old.

Over the years every once in a while I would think about this and when I would ask other Christians about this, they would say, Hey it's just a trick or the Dinosaurs bones just happened.

Which I could not accept either answer.

When I was around 15 or 16 I started to study the Bible and then when I was about 45 years old, I found within the pages of the bible.
To where the earth is not 6000 yrs old, But Millions of years old, That there were an earth age way before this earth age came to be they we live in now.

And this earth age of a Millions of years ago, Is where the dinosaurs bones came from.

You see everyone including scientist are under this thing of the earth as being only 6000 years old. So the scientist set out to try and disprove that the earth is more than 6000 years old.

But not realizing nor understand what the Bible actually does say about how old the earth is exactly.
Supports the scientist claim that the earth is Millions of years old.

And refutes Christians claim the earth as being only 6000 years old.

Within the bible, it speaks about a world that then was and what happened and what caused that world that then was to Perished.

What people don't come to realize is that, there were two floods of water that came upon the earth.
The first flood of water to come upon the earth, was way before this world came to be. Which takes us back a Million years ago.

The Bible speaks about this flood of water.

This flood of water happened Millions of years before the flood of Noah's.
But you still think creation of man is about 6000 years ago? Beginning with Adam and Eve?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why on earth would god need blood sacrifices?
Because blood is the symbol for life. It was necessary in the carriage of justice for blood (life) to be offered to atone for a life lost. That life was a man who took the entire human race down into death with him. To balance the scales of justice, an equivalent life was offered....the life of Jesus Christ.

If god is an ineffable spirit, doesn’t need to eat and drink, then the blood sacrifices are just senseless acts of barbarism, based on nothing more than superstitions.

From the perspective of one not acquainted with the ways of the God of the Bible, it will never make sense. Understanding the symbolism and the need for atonement ("at-one-ment") because of what was taken by the actions of one man who passed on an inherited legacy of death, blood sacrifice of animals was a temporary measure to facilitate the forgiveness of sin and point forward to the ultimate sacrifice.....THE sacrifice of a man who paid a debt that no other human ever could.

The Bible shows that someone who sold themselves or their children into slavery to pay a debt, could have the debt paid by someone else to free them if they could never pay the debt themselves. The debt had to be the full amount owed.
A perfect man (Adam) sold his children into slavery to sin and death with no way to provide a perfect life to pay the debt. Only another perfect life could be offered in exchange to cancel the debt and free the captives. That is the basis for the blood sacrifice.

You would think that if the god of your bible was superior over deities of other religions, then it would not have same superstitious customs as their neighbours, eg the Egyptians, the Canaanites, Babylonians, etc.

As I said, unless you understand the way God's justice works, it will never make sense to you. If you don't want to understand, then why bother trying?

The absurdity is that god required some sorts of sacrifices to show devotion, loyalty or obedience, hardly seem to make your god any more superior than Ra, Enlil, Zeus, when it is doing the same gig as every other religions before Judaism and Christianity.

Really....? says one who describes himself as "the lost one".....? Let me know when you are found...OK?

Armchair critics are a dime a dozen.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
From the perspective of one not acquainted with the ways of the God of the Bible, it will never make sense.
FYI

I was believer in the bible for nearly 20 years, but didn't convert. Four of those years, earlier years, I was actively seeking to join a church, before my 15 year hiatus of not touching the bible.

Two factors, made me go on this hiatus, my argument with the pastor, whose church I was about to join, and my studies, and later my job, took higher priority than the church. Even though those 15 years, I was still a believer.

The irony is that I only became agnostic because I picked up the bible again. And instead of renewing my belief, it may me doubt the veracity of the bible.

Again, for FYI, it had nothing to do with evolution or science. It had nothing to do with Genesis Creation and Flood. They did later, but not back then (in 2000).

Me becoming agnostic was due to the inconsistencies I see in the bible, especially the so-called prophecies of Jesus that he was meant to fulfill: the liberal interpretations in Isaiah and Jeremiah. The inconsistencies that I didn't see when I was younger.

I know very well about Jesus' supposedly sacrifice to save mankind. I needs no preaching from you about Jesus' promise of resurrection for believers.

Armchair critics are a dime a dozen.
The same can be said about you with science. You have no expertise in biology or science in general, and yet you expect us to take you seriously.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
But you still think creation of man is about 6000 years ago? Beginning with Adam and Eve?


That is where your wrong the earth is Millions if not Billions of years old.

Adam and Eve haved started some 6000 years ago, But the earth it's self is alot older. More like Millions of years ago.

Maybe you need to find out where people stand on things, before you say how people may think about things.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That is where your wrong the earth is Millions if not Billions of years old.
Current estimation is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years old.

Adam and Eve haved started some 6000 years ago, But the earth it's self is alot older. More like Millions of years ago.
Billions (about 4.54 billion).

Maybe you need to find out where people stand on things, before you say how people may think about things.
Gnostic never said any such thing. He asked you two questions. There is a difference.

"But you still think creation of man is about 6000 years ago? Beginning with Adam and Eve?"

.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Current estimation is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years old.


Billions (about 4.54 billion).


Gnostic never said any such thing. He asked you two questions. There is a difference.

"But you still think creation of man is about 6000 years ago? Beginning with Adam and Eve?"

.


You still don't get it Right.

I never said that the earth is 6000 years old.

I said the earth is Millions if not Billions of years old.

The earth was already here, long before Adam and Eve came.

Even the Dinosaurs bones proves this and many other things the paleontologist scientist and the archaeologist scientist have found proves the earth as being Millions if not Billions of years old.

Maybe you need to ask a person what they think about how old the earth actually really is. Before you make accusations that a person did not say.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
FYI

I was believer in the bible for nearly 20 years, but didn't convert.

How does one say that they are a "believer" but not convert? Conversion is dependent upon belief. I am confused by this statement.
unsure

Do you mean that you did not settle on a denomination? That is not "conversion". All denominations in Christendom claim to be the same religion. I believe that is true....its just not "Christian" IMO.

Four of those years, earlier years, I was actively seeking to join a church, before my 15 year hiatus of not touching the bible.

Perhaps that was your main problem.....I was a member of the Anglican Church for the first twenty odd years of my life, raised to believe everything they taught from Sunday School onward.
I saw so much hypocrisy and blatant disobedience to Christ's commands that I couldn't take it anymore, so I left to explore other options, which included going to other denominations to see if I could find any who were actually doing what Christ commanded. None of them were. They were all just different versions of the same thing. I felt as if God was missing from all of them and I could not find him in any of the 'obvious' places.

I left the church system and explored eastern religions for a time, but the idolatry put me off.

I then went to a more atheistic position and tried to support that by studying evolution....that too failed to satisfy my natural sense of logic for all of the reasons I have already posted. I saw design in nature and could not be persuaded to believe that it was all "accidental".

Just when I thought I had lost God forever......he found me. It is an encounter I will never forget. I asked one question that I had asked all the others, but never got an honest answer beyond "I don't know". This time the answer was provided straight from the Bible, and it led to more questions and still more answers....not "I think" answers, but solid Bible explanations of the way things work in God's scheme of things.
It all made such perfect sense, but it came from a source that I would never even have considered.
I now knew how Jesus' disciples felt in the religious climate of their day. (John 15:18-21)
You can't talk to brick walls.
wallbash


Two factors, made me go on this hiatus, my argument with the pastor, whose church I was about to join, and my studies, and later my job, took higher priority than the church.
Even though those 15 years, I was still a believer.

The irony is that I only became agnostic because I picked up the bible again. And instead of renewing my belief, it may me doubt the veracity of the bible.

I do not believe that anyone can just pick up a Bible and read it on their own to work out what it says. This is why we have so many conflicting denominations. There is an account of an Ethiopian Eunuch who was reading scripture and wondering about its meaning. Phillip was sent by God to explain to him the meaning of the scriptures. (Acts 8:26-36) I believe that God does the same thing even now. It is the reason why Jesus' disciples were sent out to preach. (Matthew 10:11-15) It is why he told us to keep on doing it till the end. (Matthew 24:14)
Not everyone wants to listen, but all are given an opportunity.
oh


Again, for FYI, it had nothing to do with evolution or science. It had nothing to do with Genesis Creation and Flood. They did later, but not back then (in 2000).

Me becoming agnostic was due to the inconsistencies I see in the bible, especially the so-called prophecies of Jesus that he was meant to fulfill: the liberal interpretations in Isaiah and Jeremiah. The inconsistencies that I didn't see when I was younger.

I have studied all these things in depth for the last 45 years and I understand them completely....I never got an understanding from my church or anywhere else. I see no inconsistencies and I can see the prophesies Jesus fulfilled very clearly. I know which parts of the Bible are literal and which are allegory. If you have the big picture, it isn't difficult. Christendom never had understanding of the big picture.

I know very well about Jesus' supposedly sacrifice to save mankind. I needs no preaching from you about Jesus' promise of resurrection for believers.

The fact that you post the things you do tells me that you were given no understanding at all about any of it. If you have hardened your heart to reject an understanding, it will never be forthcomnig. If you are "lost", then you have to "want" to be found, like the humble Jews that Jesus was sent to. Only they were given understanding of his teachings, the majority of the Jews gave him nothing but grief. They refused to listen because they wanted to stay where they were....."lost".

The same can be said about you with science. You have no expertise in biology or science in general, and yet you expect us to take you seriously.

I don't have to know all there is about counterfeit banknotes to identify a fake.....all I need to know is what the genuine article looks like. My comparisons will tell me the rest.
128fs318181.gif


If you really read what the scientists are saying rather than what you "think" they are saying, you will see what I have been declaring all along. They are promoting a belief system, not proven verifiable facts. You can swap one belief system for another, but not be any better of in the big scheme of things.
Going from "lost" to "more lost" achieves nothing.
headslap


I believe that we have a purpose to our existence and that the Bible tells us why we are are here, why things appear to be so horribly out of control at present, (and getting worse by the day with one disaster after another) and it tells us what we can expect in the future. I find its answers personally satisfying and I am patiently waiting for the conclusion that the Bible predicted 2,000 years ago. World events tell me that it is closer than ever. If you are really one of his own, God will find you....but you are free to turn him away. He will not force himself on anyone.
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BYW, I want to thank you for sharing your personal experience, it helps me to understand where you are coming from.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
That is where your wrong the earth is Millions if not Billions of years old.

Adam and Eve haved started some 6000 years ago, But the earth it's self is alot older. More like Millions of years ago.

Maybe you need to find out where people stand on things, before you say how people may think about things.
Please re-read my question.

I asked you was the “creation of man”, 6000 years ago, not creation of the Earth.

But you still think creation of man is about 6000 years ago?

Do you see?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You still don't get it Right.

I never said that the earth is 6000 years old.

I said the earth is Millions if not Billions of years old.

The earth was already here, long before Adam and Eve came.

Even the Dinosaurs bones proves this and many other things the paleontologist scientist and the archaeologist scientist have found proves the earth as being Millions if not Billions of years old.
And I was simply helping you out. Not to say you are wrong or criticize, which I didn't, but to bring you up to date. :shrug:

Maybe you need to ask a person what they think about how old the earth actually really is. Before you make accusations that a person did not say.
And again you seem unable to comprehend what is said. I never accused you of anything. The only things I did was to inform you and correct your impression of gnostic's questions.

.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Perhaps that was your main problem.....I was a member of the Anglican Church for the first twenty odd years of my life, raised to believe everything they taught from Sunday School onward.
I saw so much hypocrisy and blatant disobedience to Christ's commands that I couldn't take it anymore, so I left to explore other options, which included going to other denominations to see if I could find any who were actually doing what Christ commanded. None of them were. They were all just different versions of the same thing. I felt as if God was missing from all of them and I could not find him in any of the 'obvious' places.
All churches have their pros and cons, and all have hypocrisy.

I don’t know much about JW, but if the members are anything like you, then hypocrisy and arrogance would seem to be JW’s mission goal.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You still don't get it Right.

I never said that the earth is 6000 years old.

I said the earth is Millions if not Billions of years old.

The earth was already here, long before Adam and Eve came.
Will you calm down?

All skwim was doing is to inform you, you have misread my questions.

I was asking about creation of Adam, not of the Earth.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
And I was simply helping you out. Not to say you are wrong or criticize, which I didn't, but to bring you up to date. :shrug:


And again you seem unable to comprehend what is said. I never accused you of anything. The only things I did was to inform you and correct your impression of gnostic's questions.

.


Ok, i.may haved misunderstood you.

I thought you were referring that I said the earth as being only 6000 years old.
Which the earth is not, but Millions if not Billions of years old.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Will you calm down?

All skwim was doing is to inform you, you have misread my questions.

I was asking about creation of Adam, not of the Earth.


Yes, I see, I thought you were referring that I said, the earth as being 6000 years old.

But it's not, More like Millions if not Billions of years old.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
All churches have their pros and cons, and all have hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is one thing that Jesus said his Father would not tolerate. I would not belong to a brotherhood of hypocrites. We all have a very sensitive 'hypocrisy meter' but like all things that use the senses, it must be correctly calibrated. The level upon which you judge things, is important. Where you are coming from is too. Being set up for bias from past experiences isn't always a good place to start. It can cloud the issues.

I don’t know much about JW

I didn't either until they knocked on my door. I was very surprised that what they showed me from the scriptures made sense. I asked my questions at first sarcastically. It wasn't until I could see that they had something to tell me that I took them seriously. I experienced what Jesus said...."you will know the truth and the truth will set you free"......I went from sceptical to excited in a rather short space of time. I must have asked a million questions and every one of them had a scriptural answer. I didn't think that was possible. The truth is not based on maybe's.....truth is absolute.

but if the members are anything like you, then hypocrisy and arrogance would seem to be JW’s mission goal.

One person is not representative of a whole group, no matter who they are.....I would imagine that the Jews thought Jesus and his disciples were arrogant too...fancy daring to oppose the status quo and challenge the teachings of those who were respected leaders in their communities!
omg


Jesus said that they were first class hypocrites and never made an apology for calling them out.....I don't either. Don't mistake confidence for arrogance, however. I just tell it like it is....most Aussies do.

Please point out my hypocrisy.....as I am not aware of any.

Disagreement is not hypocrisy and neither is challenging the belief system of evolutionary science.
I point out that one belief system can't be promoted as truth whilst another belief system is howled down as lies! There has to be verifiable proof for the one who claims it is NOT to be a belief system.....but which on investigation, clearly is.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Yes, I see, I thought you were referring that I said, the earth as being 6000 years old.

But it's not, More like Millions if not Billions of years old.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention
Ok. Thank you.

Having answering that Adam and Eve being created about 6000 years ago.

Can you answer this:

Were they the first humans?​
 
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