I got sick of being an atheist

[ecco]

By definition from the source text we are referring to "God" is the one who makes 'death' just 'sleep' -- from which He awakens all, everyone -- thus this 'death' you just referred to isn't a true/final death.

So, if you use 'God' in a sentence and then suggest even indirectly or by tacit assumption that the death of this body is a final cessation of existence, then it suggests you have accidentally referred to some other idea rather than "God" in your thinking.

God is the one Who gives innocents such as children who 'die' Eternal Life.

See the difference now?

Apolgetics noted.


However...
A reasonably careful reading of my post should have made it clear to you that I was questioning the comments of the religious parents and another religious folk.

As an atheist, I never wonder why God needs more angels.
As a realist, I never wonder why two were "spared".

 

[ecco]

One way is to disbelieve in any god or Gods based on reason.

OK. I'll play. What caused you to believe that there was no God?

Please note that responses like...

If there was a God, there wouldn't be any children dying of cancer.​

... won't count because all that shows is anger, not disbelief. It could also just be a recognition that God is not omnibenevolent.

But, let's see what you have to say.

 

[Dawnofhope]

OK. I'll play. What caused you to believe that there was no God?

Please note that responses like...

If there was a God, there wouldn't be any children dying of cancer.​

... won't count because all that shows is anger, not disbelief. It could also just be a recognition that God is not omnibenevolent.

But, let's see what you have to say.

To be clear, I didn't disbelieve in God because I felt angry with God. There was simply a lack of compelling evidence God existed. The main religion where I live is Christianity. The dominant Christian narrative presented at the time had fundamentalist leanings. There are aspects of the Christianity that are incoherent, lacking any sense of justice and simply irrational. Other religious narratives such as Buddhism and Hinduism have similar problems. So the most reasonable explanation about the origins of these faiths (Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism) is they are man made. There is no need need for any Divine Being. Religions derive from cultural factors that touch on our psychological need for meaning.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

All you had to do is go back through this thread and read the posts for the explanations. Apparently that's what you were "incapable" of.

If you're gonna jump on the "atheists are never wrong or stupid" bandwagon, you should probably see where it's been, first.

What a bunch of tripe.
I've never...ever...ever...been on a 'atheists are never wrong or stupid' bandwagon. It would be a complete nonsense. Atheists are just people, amazingly, with all the foibles and failures that entails.

None of which changes the fact that I'm quite capable of speaking in detail about one atheist...me...and about my motivations and beliefs. And none of which changes that you've made a series of posts in this very thread going on about the intellectual failure of atheism. To which I responded...quite simply...that my atheism isn't a result of anything other than me not believing there is a God. Even were I to think that was a dark or unfortunate belief, or a belief that lacks utility, that wouldn't change.

I'm more than happy to discuss that with you, but you appear to be all too ready with the pejoratives, and to dismiss atheism and atheists. We're really not a very coherent or consistent group, so I don't really get it.

 

[PureX]

What a bunch of tripe.
I've never...ever...ever...been on a 'atheists are never wrong or stupid' bandwagon. It would be a complete nonsense. Atheists are just people, amazingly, with all the foibles and failures that entails.

None of which changes the fact that I'm quite capable of speaking in detail about one atheist...me...and about my motivations and beliefs. And none of which changes that you've made a series of posts in this very thread going on about the intellectual failure of atheism. To which I responded...quite simply...that my atheism isn't a result of anything other than me not believing there is a God. Even were I to think that was a dark or unfortunate belief, or a belief that lacks utility, that wouldn't change.

What makes you think anyone cares about what you DON'T believe? Or that it has anything at all to do with an intelligent conversation about the nature or existence of God?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What makes you think anyone cares about what you DON'T believe? Or that it has anything at all to do with an intelligent conversation about the nature or existence of God?

I wouldn't presuppose that people particularly care what I believe about anything.
But some do. So I just talk, and listen.

It's pretty bloody simple.

 

[PureX]

I wouldn't presuppose that people particularly care what I believe about anything.
But some do. So I just talk, and listen.

It's pretty bloody simple.

But you're proclaiming what you DON'T believe, and claiming it defines your atheism. Which is even more absurd.

 

[ecco]

To be clear, I didn't disbelieve in God because I felt angry with God. There was simply a lack of compelling evidence God existed.

There still isn't.

The main religion where I live is Christianity. The dominant Christian narrative presented at the time had fundamentalist leanings. There are aspects of the Christianity that are incoherent, lacking any sense of justice and simply irrational. Other religious narratives such as Buddhism and Hinduism have similar problems.

None of that has changed.

So the most reasonable explanation about the origins of these faiths (Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism) is they are man made. There is no need need for any Divine Being. Religions derive from cultural factors that touch on our psychological need for meaning.

That is still true.

So, for how long did you try this atheism, and what led you to Bahai?

I find it interesting that you went from all gods/religions are man-made to belief in a religion that asserts that all religions/gods are from a God.

 

[halbhh]

Apolgetics noted.


However...
A reasonably careful reading of my post should have made it clear to you that I was questioning the comments of the religious parents and another religious folk.

As an atheist, I never wonder why God needs more angels.
As a realist, I never wonder why two were "spared".

Previously I read your earlier post to me and it looked like you were saying the idea that children or infants that die are imagined to become angels is merely a rhetorical device you yourself used for argument, so I didn't correct it before. But I did indeed read through your posts carefully.

But it looks now more like you may think that the notion that babies that die become angels might be an idea a Christian parent would have (perhaps some might)?

As an aid let me correct that. This notion is an invention (sort of like other inventions with no basis, such as how some imagine people in the future hell are supposed to be tortured by demons or such instead of perishing).
Just on the chance it might help discussion to correct this notion, the actual meaning re 'angels' in scripture isn't that children that die become angels, but that all human souls will be "like" angels there (e.g., in an immortal (new) body that will be unlike their old body). e.g. -- Mark 12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.

So, see, if you meant it as a serious question to say:

The parents of those who died comfort themselves by saying God needed some more angels in Heaven. I always want to ask those people, if God needed more angels, why didn't he just create them like he did Adam?

Perhaps the better way (more real) to respond to such a putative situation would be to gently tell that grieving parent something more accurate to their putative beliefs: that from the bible we learn God will show Grace and Mercy, that all little children already own the Kingdom of Heaven Christ said, and one can expect all young children that die to gain the same eternal life any redeemed person will have.

That is, if you are ever in that situation, to tell them something more valid to their presumed source of information.

 

[ecco]

But it looks now more like you may think that the notion that babies that die become angels might be an idea a Christian parent would have (perhaps some might)?

Undeniably some parents, relatives, and friends do have that notion. If not, why would they say it? If not, why would the say it with their arm around a grieving parent to console them in front of a media crew?

I have seen it. I'll bet most Americans have.

As an aid let me correct that. This notion is an invention (sort of like other inventions with no basis, such as how some imagine people in the future hell are supposed to be tortured by demons or such instead of perishing).
Just on the chance it might help discussion to correct this notion, the actual meaning re 'angels' in scripture isn't that children that die become angels, but that all human souls will be "like" angels there

Perhaps you should take that up with the people actually saying things like that.

Perhaps the better way (more real) to respond to such a putative situation would be to gently tell that grieving parent something more accurate to their putative beliefs: that from the bible we learn God will show Grace and Mercy, that all little children already own the Kingdom of Heaven Christ said, and one can expect all young children that die to gain the same eternal life any redeemed person will have.

Apologetics noted. I'm sure all the little children who died horrible deaths in the waters and mudslides of your great flood will be pleased to hear your concepts.

That is, if you are ever in that situation, to tell them something more valid to their presumed source of information.

As an atheist, I would not be so rude. I wouldn't even tell them to read your enlightening posts.

 

[halbhh]

I'm sure all the little children who died horrible deaths in the waters and mudslides of your great flood will be pleased to hear your concepts.

ah, if they like hearing what they've already found out, perhaps.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There still isn't.



None of that has changed.



That is still true.

So, for how long did you try this atheism, and what led you to Bahai?

I find it interesting that you went from all gods/religions are man-made to belief in a religion that asserts that all religions/gods are from a God.

I was an committed atheist for nine months. Not long. However I had about nine years beforehand of being agnostic where the whole issue of religion wasn’t particularly relevant or important. I grew up mainstream Protestant Christian but this world view became largely irrelevant from my early teens until early twenties. At that stage I went through somewhat of a life crisis and briefly reconnected with my Christian roots but came in contact with Christian fundamentalism for the first time. Christian fundamentalism has clear problems so I stepped back and explored Buddhism and Hinduism. There was a different set of problems with Hinduism in particular but also with Buddhism. At that stage atheism made the most sense and that's what I choose. Unlike choosing a religion, there was no need to be part of a faith community or adopt any beliefs or ideas I was uncomfortable with. Atheism is based on reason and having a strong science background contributed to my decision.

However my committed atheism was short lived and ultimately wasn't a good fit. My made a series of poor decisions and developed severe depression. In my despair, I turned my thoughts towards God and immediately felt a sense of relief. I rediscovered the power of prayer in my life. I decided to explore faith communities by checking out what was available where I lived. Soon I was attending a Baptist Church, The Tibetan Buddhist Centre and the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith overwhelmingly made the most sense so decided I would try becoming a Baha'i. That was thirty years ago and so I'm still trying it out.

Criticise the Baha'i Faith all you want, but the Baha'i Faith does not teach all religions/gods are from God. Why do you believe that?

Why are you so anti-theistic if you don't mind me asking? I have no issue with atheists but you are one of a number of atheists on this forum who have a clear aversion to theists.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But you're proclaiming what you DON'T believe, and claiming it defines your atheism. Which is even more absurd.

Atheism is almost nothing. It's a reactionary position, nothing more. It says very little about me.
Some of my positive positions...some of how I act, and what I believe...is no doubt informed by atheism to a degree. Or not informed by religion, whichever way you want to look at it.

But atheism itself is a single sentence. I don't believe there's a God. My world view and philosophy on life are not so simple.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was an atheist by birth for 18 years. It was a blessed childhood. I didn't have to go to that weird building every Sunday. In summertime we went swimming at the local river with family and friends, or played baseball with the other atheist families. In winter we played ice hockey on the home made rink. I built treehouses, made bale forts, and stayed relatively naive about the problems of the world. There was nothing at all boring about it. On Monday mornings back in school, sharing what we did on the weekend, other students envied us.

Mom enrolled me in a summer Bible camp at the church 3 miles away, because she thought it would give us something to do. I lasted one day, and the second day made such a scene that she allowed me not to go.

It's not faith or non-faith that makes your life boring or interesting, it's how you approach it, the people around you, and what you do with the many many opportunities presented to us on this planet. Smiling at someone has nothing to do with faith.

 

[ecco]

At that stage atheism made the most sense and that's what I choose.

This thread is all about people trying atheism and stating they were atheists.

I, and other atheists, have questioned how one tries atheism.

Giving up on a religion or religions in general does not make someone an atheist.

One does not choose atheism. One realizes that there are no gods / is no God. That realization can come in many ways and can be based on any number of factors. However, it is still a realization, a recognition, not a choice.

However my committed atheism was short lived and ultimately wasn't a good fit.

Yes, because you never were an atheist.

I turned my thoughts towards God

More realistically, you turned back to finding the right god.

Why are you so anti-theistic if you don't mind me asking? I have no issue with atheists but you are one of a number of atheists on this forum who have a clear aversion to theists.

I am not anti-theistic. Most of my very closest people are believers in God. I love them and respect their beliefs.

However, this is a forum. When people say "I was once an atheist", I really have to question it. When people (not you) add things like "it sucks to be an atheist", well, I'll definitely respond.

I am against people who try to push their religiously based beliefs onto others. That includes people who would restrict a woman's rights, instill prayer in public schools, ban alcohol, gambling, etc. I get annoyed when people try to promote a "holier than thou" concept of (their) religious morals.

Beyond that, I question the basis for beliefs when there are no rational reasons to hold them. Gods are the creation of man's imaginings. They are as varied as man himself.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This thread is all about people trying atheism and stating they were atheists.

I, and other atheists, have questioned how one tries atheism.

Giving up on a religion or religions in general does not make someone an atheist.

One does not choose atheism. One realizes that there are no gods / is no God. That realization can come in many ways and can be based on any number of factors. However, it is still a realization, a recognition, not a choice.

Can one not realise there is no god or Gods at one stage of their life and realise god or Gods exist at another stage? Can one not have choice over beliefs? I may choose to believe in X one time because it makes sense, then at a later stage choose something else because it feels right. But its up to each one of us how we use language to define who we are. If the word “choice” in regards “beliefs” is disagreeable for you, that’s fine for you. That’s your reality, but it isn’t mine.

Yes, because you never were an atheist.

Once again its up to me how I define my beliefs, not you.

More realistically, you turned back to finding the right god.

People change in life from one belief to another. I’m good with that. Why aren’t you?

I am not anti-theistic. Most of my very closest people are believers in God. I love them and respect their beliefs.

However, this is a forum. When people say "I was once an atheist", I really have to question it. When people (not you) add things like "it sucks to be an atheist", well, I'll definitely respond.

I am against people who try to push their religiously based beliefs onto others. That includes people who would restrict a woman's rights, instill prayer in public schools, ban alcohol, gambling, etc. I get annoyed when people try to promote a "holier than thou" concept of (their) religious morals.

Beyond that, I question the basis for beliefs when there are no rational reasons to hold them. Gods are the creation of man's imaginings. They are as varied as man himself.

OK, so you have questioned the legitimacy of my atheism many years ago as a Christian would criticise the legitimacy of my faith in Christ. That is your prerogative. I’m not really interested in criticism of atheists or atheist beliefs. I’m pleased you have friends who are believers and you love and respect them. I feel the same way about my atheist friends. If atheism works for one man and Christianity another, who am I to judge? You take exception to the attitudes and behaviour of some believers. OK, most of us do.

 

[Rival]

There was a different set of problems with Hinduism in particular but also with Buddhism.

I'd like to hear more about your issues with these. If not here then maybe a PM?