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I got into a fight with my dad about the bible

Clear

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Frank Goad

I think you've been given some good advice regarding at least respecting your parent and trying to respect his belief. Also, remember, he is speaking from the position of ancient christian beliefs while your beliefs are from an entirely different christian movement of a different era. These are not the same religions. This is not to say that the early Judeo-Christians and their interpretations were correct nor that the later christian movement with it's different interpretations that you have adopted are correct or incorrect. Merely that the Early Christianity is a different religion with different interpretations of their text than later christian movements.

Give him the respect he deserves and keep in mind that we are speaking of beliefs and not pure facts in terms of personal interpretations.

Good luck and remember to love your dad and respect the fact that he may have just as much reason to believe what he believes as you have reason to believe what you believe.

Good journey Frank

Clear
ειειδρδρω
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
1213 said:
Please show one example of not clear message and explain why it is not clear?
Click to expand...
We could start with the obvious.
Jesus didn't speak English. He wouldn't even recognize the name "Jesus".

Every time an English speaker claims that "Jesus said..." they are demonstrably wrong. Had Jesus said whatever they're claiming He said, nobody would have understood it, much less remembered it many years later.
Which brings me to another crucial point. Nobody knows what Jesus said or did. The best we've got is what various, anonymous, people claim He said and did. But not all of it because once the Roman church picked out stuff, they heavily suppressed everything else. In other words, once some Roman aristocracy decided that certain texts were suited their purposes those texts were canonized. Declared magically true, as opposed to all the other heretical texts and teachings.

How Revelation ever made the cut, I don't know. Or Paul's Epistles. But there it is. Things Jesus had nothing to do with are in The Bible.

So, that's a couple of the main reasons I say there's nothing particularly clear about Jesus's Message.
Tom
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
We could start with the obvious.

Jesus didn't speak English. He wouldn't even recognize the name "Jesus".

Every time an English speaker claims that "Jesus said..." they are demonstrably wrong. Had Jesus said whatever they're claiming He said, nobody would have understood it, much less remembered it many years later…
Click to expand...

It is different matter did Jesus really say what is written, or is it clear what is written. I have no reason to think the translations are not correct. Also, I was speaking about for example English translations, they are clear. If you think they are wrongly translated, it would be interesting to hear why you think so.

columbus said:
….Which brings me to another crucial point. Nobody knows what Jesus said or did…
Click to expand...

That is why people are called believers. I believe Jesus said and did what is told in the Bible.

I don’t believe your conspiracy theory.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
e.r.m. said:
Liking isn't or shouldn't be how we assess right or wrong. Is it possible the soul survives the death of the body? Matthew 10:28.
Click to expand...

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That verse is often used as proof of an immortal soul in man. The only problem is that the word "immortal" is NOT found in the verse.

Furthermore, the same word translated as "soul" in that verse is translated as "life" just a few verses later:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Man can kill your body and can do nothing else to you after that. Their power terminates after they have killed someone. But God's power does not terminate after having killed someone. Jesus said:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. The just are to be raised immortal while the unjust will be raised mortal as they were before and shall suffer a second death by being cast into the lake of fire.

Therefore Matthew 10:28 is NO proof of an inherent immortal soul as they claim.
 
R

Rise

Well-Known Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see wisdom is required, no person can judge anothers Faith in God.
Click to expand...

You are committing the logical fallacy of "red herring". The issue in contention was never about judging what the state of someone's faith in God was.
The issue was whether or not the Bible supports the idea that it's wrong to "argue" or "fight" about what the truth of Scripture is.

You have not attempted to disprove or argue against the Scripture I gave with shows we are to draw a divide between truth and falsehood, and call it out for what it is. This is also what Jesus modeled for us in His own actions.

Your attempted point also isn't even true. The Bible doesn't support the idea that we are not to judge false teachers from true teachers, or the true sheep from the wolves in sheep's clothing. But considering that issue was a red herring to begin with, there is no point in me needing to pull up scripture to prove that fact, because the truth of that fact is ultimately irrelevant to proving your claim that it's wrong for someone to declare that some things are true about Scripture while other things are clearly false.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
nPeace said:
Huh?
Click to expand...
I have given two examples where a vision can represent actual events. There are visions where you see into the spiritual realm--and they are real.

When Jesus spoke about Lazarus and the rich man, they were not "sleeping".

So it boils down to whether or not one agrees to hold a position or not. Either way, it doesn't change the reality of God and the end of times.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Rival said:
How much blood was there? Were you O.K?
Click to expand...

i believe JWs don't believe in fighting. I used to et my brother-in-law pretty worked up but his brothers cautioned him to not get angry. Of course the truth hurts sometimes.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see when one fights over God's Word then both parties are wrong.

The idea is to find the good within, not for it to become a cause for division.

In the end though, we will most likely choose the later.

P/S the soul lives on.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...

I believe in fighting which is one reason the JWs wouldn't study with me any more but then it is a good idea to have something worth fighting for and I believe that is the truth.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe in fighting which is one reason the JWs wouldn't study with me any more but then it is a good idea to have something worth fighting for and I believe that is the truth.
Click to expand...

All the best Muffled, I hope you win your battles, those battles I see are with one's own self.

Regards Tony
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
nPeace said:
Oh. You were having a discussion then. Just disagreeing.
That doesn't sound so bad. Are you sure fight is the right word to use?
When you push it, that's when it becomes a fight.
However, if you are gently sharing, there is no harm in that... unless your dad is like...

whatchatalkinabout.jpg

What you talking bout junior?
Then it's time to excuse yourself, and go wash the dishes. :D
Just kidding. You can always say, "Dad. That's what I thought at first... until I actually looked at it closer!"

You and your dad seem close. That's good. Some don't have that kind of relationship.
Click to expand...

I have an interesting story about Gary Coleman. I have a friend in the FBI who is an interrogator. When the FBI interviews people about a crime, there are certain clues that will indicate guilt by the way a person responds. It's very well documented he said. Especially if the crime involves a murder. He told me there are certain clues that give away someone. I thought it was very interesting at the time.

About a week later Gary Coleman died. They were playing a tape of the 911 call made by his wife after he fell down the stairs. During the call she's answer a bunch of questions. Bells where going off in my head because she was saying several of the responses exactly as my friend told me would indicate guilt. I was going nuts. I thought at some point we would hear she pushed him down the stairs or something but it never happened. I don't think they had the best of relationships:

"In 2007, Coleman was cited for misdemeanor disorderly conduct in Provo, Utah after a "heated discussion" in public with his wife."
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Frank Goad said:
My dad said that Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 point to the idea that the soul survives bodily death.What should I say to him?:(.Because my dad likes the christian religion.And I like the jehovah's witness religion.:(
Click to expand...

It seems to me all three statements are perfectly compatible:

"Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of non-existence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment; Hades and Sheol are understood to refer to the condition of death, termed the common grave.[193] Jehovah's Witnesses consider the soul to be a life or a living body that can die.[194] Jehovah's Witnesses believe that humanity is in a sinful state,[194] from which release is only possible by means of Jesus' shed blood as a ransom, or atonement, for the sins of humankind.[195]"

In my opinion, when our spirit returns to God we are too busy experiencing God's infinite beauty in a state of eternal bliss to have any consciousness. We are non-existent in the sense we no longer experience time and we have no needs or desires.

What exactly were you arguing about?
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
LightofTruth said:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That verse is often used as proof of an immortal soul in man. The only problem is that the word "immortal" is NOT found in the verse.

Furthermore, the same word translated as "soul" in that verse is translated as "life" just a few verses later:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Man can kill your body and can do nothing else to you after that. Their power terminates after they have killed someone. But God's power does not terminate after having killed someone. Jesus said:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. The just are to be raised immortal while the unjust will be raised mortal as they were before and shall suffer a second death by being cast into the lake of fire.

Therefore Matthew 10:28 is NO proof of an inherent immortal soul as they claim.
Click to expand...
So what is it that is destroyed after the body is killed that we should fear?
Is the body killed and the "life" is killed after?
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
dfnj said:
It seems to me all three statements are perfectly compatible:

"Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of non-existence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment; Hades and Sheol are understood to refer to the condition of death, termed the common grave.[193] Jehovah's Witnesses consider the soul to be a life or a living body that can die.[194] Jehovah's Witnesses believe that humanity is in a sinful state,[194] from which release is only possible by means of Jesus' shed blood as a ransom, or atonement, for the sins of humankind.[195]"

In my opinion, when our spirit returns to God we are too busy experiencing God's infinite beauty in a state of eternal bliss to have any consciousness. We are non-existent in the sense we no longer experience time and we have no needs or desires.

What exactly were you arguing about?
Click to expand...
Whether or not the story of the rich man and Lazarus is an account or an allegory, Jesus was not describing a life force, but people with consciousness. Why would Jesus describe that if we are stripped of consciousness after we die?
 
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