I got into a fight with my dad about the bible

[PruePhillip]

Bringing up apostate rantings about JWs won't help you here. It only shows up your intentions here on this thread, to sway Frank from his convictions, which, may I remind you, is against forum rules. Why not PM Frank and preach your anti-JW message. See if you can sway him there.
Apostates do exactly the same thing. They stand outside stadiums, in parking lots, and on the street, where JWs assemble, just to try to sway persons inclined to JWs message.

So funny. You don't succeed with honest hearted ones... That's Satan's job though, so do you really want to keep at it. It's a failure.
If that's what you want, go ahead, but please don't do it on these forums. Keep to the rules. We don't preach to Frank. Frank asks sincere questions, and he considers the answers he gets, from all persons. He is open minded, and seems sincere.
Be fair to him.

I am not an apostate. I never bought into the JW doctrines - just did my best
to remember what people told me.

 

[nPeace]

I am not an apostate. I never bought into the JW doctrines - just did my best
to remember what people told me.

I never said you were an apostate, did I?

 

[PruePhillip]

I never said you were an apostate, did I?

You said "apostate rantings" so that could mean you thought I was an apostate.
Over the years I have entertained many a JW in our home, and read their non-
bible literature (should such a thing be necessary?) Even attended their church
from time to time. I have a lot of respect for them as people, but non for their
Rutherford doctrine.

 

[Kenny]

All visions are real Ken. You don't seem to understand what I am saying, or maybe we don't seem to understand what each of us are saying.

Do you mean real, as in, they experienced it - in other words, saw it, or real, as in they were actual real events? If the later, No.
Visions usually are not actual real events taking place. Otherwise, please I ask again, show me one in the Bible.

I'll show you several, to support the fact that they are not real occurring events.
Starting from the Hebrew scriptures and coming forward. They are actually too many to quote all of them, so please feel free to quote any one to the contrary.

Then there is the entire book of Revelation.

Notice that Paul thought he was seeing a vision, but a real event was occurring. He only realized what he was experiencing was real, after the angel left him.
He like all the apostles and prophets knew that visions were not actual occurring events.
Notice that Peter was trying to get the message from the vision he saw. It perplexed him.
Likewise, Peter James, and John thought - like Paul - they were experiencing an actual real event. They were not, but were mistaken.

I must say Ken, you guys do make simple stuff in the Bible into rocket science, and there really is no need to.... but we should know from scripture why that is. (Matthew 11:25-30)

I pray you won't be a casualty Ken.
Jehovah's people are not far away.

Actually, I understand exactly what you are saying and you do have some truth.

Here is the problem as I view it. You take a position, put all the scripture into the strainer of that position, use all the scriptures that sift through to prove your point and throw out those that don't support your position.

My position is, I take the word of God as the strainer, put the position into the strainer, keep the positions that sift through and throw out the position that don't.

Application example. Jesus isn't God. Keep all the scriptures which says he wasn't (while he was a man) and throw out all the scriptures that say he was God or, where you obviously can't, explain it away so as to believe it never existed.

 

[nPeace]

You said "apostate rantings" so that could mean you thought I was an apostate.
Over the years I have entertained many a JW in our home, and read their non-
bible literature (should such a thing be necessary?) Even attended their church
from time to time. I have a lot of respect for them as people, but non for their
Rutherford doctrine.

You misinterpreted what I said.
JWs are respectable people.
It's hard not to respect them.
From my experience, they usually are hated, mostly by die hard religious people.

A lot of changes have been made over the years, but all for the better. However, this thread is not the place to discuss these things.
Maybe on an appropriate thread, I will hear more from you.

 

[nPeace]

Actually, I understand exactly what you are saying and you do have some truth.

Here is the problem as I view it. You take a position, put all the scripture into the strainer of that position, use all the scriptures that sift through to prove your point and throw out those that don't support your position.

My position is, I take the word of God as the strainer, put the position into the strainer, keep the positions that sift through and throw out the position that don't.

Application example. Jesus isn't God. Keep all the scriptures which says he wasn't (while he was a man) and throw out all the scriptures that say he was God or, where you obviously can't, explain it away so as to believe it never existed.

I suggest you know that's not true Ken. You must know that is far from the truth.
However, since we aren't discussing the Trinity, why not make the application with visions.
Give me one example where I "use all the scriptures that sift through to prove my] point and throw out those that don't support [my] position."
Then give one example where you "take the word of God as the strainer, put the position into the strainer, keep the positions that sift through and throw out the position that don't".

 

[Kenny]

I suggest you know that's not true Ken. You must know that is far from the truth.
However, since we aren't discussing the Trinity, why not make the application with visions.
Give me one example where I "use all the scriptures that sift through to prove my] point and throw out those that don't support [my] position."
Then give one example where you "take the word of God as the strainer, put the position into the strainer, keep the positions that sift through and throw out the position that don't".

The simple reality that Peter, James and John saw and heard Jesus talking to Moses and Elias. The "vision" was their ability to see into the spiritual world -- but it actually happened.

Jesus as God is just another example.

 

[nPeace]

The simple reality that Peter, James and John saw and heard Jesus talking to Moses and Elias. The "vision" was their ability to see into the spiritual world -- but it actually happened.

Jesus as God is just another example.

You can't. Okay.

 

[Kenny]

You can't. Okay.

Ok... so ignoring case points your answer?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Could enforced ignorance be considered a form of bondage?

Perhaps but a leap of faith toward the light is not ignorance.
That would be choosing well.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's a great confirmation!

"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." - (Jesus - Matthew 10:28)
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
"These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength," (Apostle Paul - 2 Thessalonians 1:9)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,
"When the wicked sprout like weeds And all the wrongdoers flourish, It is that they may be annihilated forever." (Psalm 92:7).
Psalm 92:7 that though the wicked sprout like grass, and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.
Jehovah guards all those who love him, But all the wicked he will annihilate. (David - Psalm 145:20)
Psalm 145:20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy.

So JWs are the only group that agrees with Jesus and his apostles (early footstep followers), and all the scriptures.
Thanks. I would feel shame otherwise.

So where does that leave all those sects?

It's a great confirmation that JWs do what I know they do--emphasize their Bible commentary as superior to the Bible (by the way, Rome claims the same thing, since they have many doctrines different than Bible believers, same as the Mormons . . . ).

Repeating, the Bible uses the same word for "eternal" within the same verses to describe the fates of the wicked and the righteous. So if the wicked are raised to be annihilated, the righteous will NOT live forever.

Other things--that we will live again in a new Earth much like this one--are also Bible heresy, as the Bible says instead, "Eye has not seen, nor ear has heard, what God has prepared for the righteous..."

 

[Kenny]

You can't. Okay.

I find this to be a better hermeneutics of the word vision

#69

 

[nPeace]

Ok... so ignoring case points your answer?

Huh?
All you did was repeat your claim.... and ignored the request for a true supportive example to the claims.
What am I supposed to do after that.
If one does not want to support their claims then we call that a baseless claim. There is nothing more we can say.

The example you provided about the Trinity is also empty - like egg shells one finds in their kitchen's garbage bin.
I didn't want to derail Frank's thread, to show you how empty your claims in that example were, but I did inform you, they were untrue.
why not create a thread, and demonstrate that what you claimed is true.
In fact, I suggest you cannot find one single thread to support what you claimed in those examples.
That's a challenge.

Spoiler

 

[nPeace]

I find this to be a better hermeneutics of the word vision

#69

Huh?

 

[nPeace]

It's a great confirmation that JWs do what I know they do--emphasize their Bible commentary as superior to the Bible (by the way, Rome claims the same thing, since they have many doctrines different than Bible believers, same as the Mormons . . . ).

Repeating, the Bible uses the same word for "eternal" within the same verses to describe the fates of the wicked and the righteous. So if the wicked are raised to be annihilated, the righteous will NOT live forever.

Other things--that we will live again in a new Earth much like this one--are also Bible heresy, as the Bible says instead, "Eye has not seen, nor ear has heard, what God has prepared for the righteous..."

Where does the Bible say "the wicked are raised to be annihilated"? Nowhere my friend. Not once does the Bible ever say the wicked are raised. Would you like to first learn what the Bible says, and then return? Because you got it all wrong, and if you begin wrong, you will definitely end wrong.
I'm sure you will frantically search for one scripture. I'll wait.

Eternal destruction. Eternal life. What does it matter, they being both eternal . I don't get your reasoning.

 

[1213]

…

But now, Trinitarians want to retrofit their polytheism into the Original Testament by whatever means necessary. …

Trinity is not in the Bible. Jesus said clearly that there is only one true God that is greater than him. He didn’t speak anything about trinity.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Bible is clear and not contradictory book. It may look that for people who hate the truth and don’t want to understand or see.

 

[columbus]

Jesus said clearly that there is only one true God that is greater than him.

Jesus didn't say anything clearly.
Nothing.

Many people claimed to be quoting Jesus, years later. That is not the same as "Jesus said clearly..."
The people claiming to speak for Jesus commonly didn't even agree with each other. Some of them never even met Jesus.
Tom

 

[Rise]

My dad said that Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 point to the idea that the soul survives bodily death.What should I say to him?.Because my dad likes the christian religion.And I like the jehovah's witness religion.

You are asking the wrong question.
The question you should be asking is, "Is he right?"

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.
-Acts 17:11

And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
-Acts 17:2


It's very dangerous to want what you believe to be truth more than you want to believe what God says is true:

and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
-2 Thessalonians 2:10

Do no idolize your own belief, and what you "like", to the point where you are unwilling to receive correction about what God's truth actually is (as the Bereans were willing to).

 

[Rise]

I see when one fights over God's Word then both parties are wrong.

The idea is to find the good within, not for it to become a cause for division.

Your idea is itself not supported by Scripture.

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
-Matthew 10:34

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
-Titus 1:9

for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
-Acts 18:8

We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
-2 Corinthians 10:5


No where in the Bible do we see even the suggestion that God's people are to put up with false teachings over important issues, refusing to confront or correct them, just to avoid "fighting" or "division". The only Scripture that talks about not letting division come over disagreements is with regards to issues that aren't actually important. The diety of Christ and the reality of hell are important issues with significant consequences if people don't believe the truth. That's why Jehovah's Witnesses aren't considered true Christians, because they break into error on issues of utmost importance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No where in the Bible do we see even the suggestion that God's people are to put up with false teachings over important issues, refusing to confront or correct them, just to avoid "fighting" or "division". The only Scripture that talks about not letting division come over disagreements is with regards to issues that aren't actually important. The diety of Christ and the reality of hell are important issues with significant consequences if people don't believe the truth. That's why Jehovah's Witnesses aren't considered true Christians, because they break into error on issues of utmost importance.

I see wisdom is required, no person can judge anothers Faith in God.

Proverbs 4:7 "The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom; And with all your acquiring, get understanding".

Also no one knows another heart and how they see God, these passages gives humility to a son;

Job 12:12 "Is not wisdom found among the aged? Does not long life bring understanding?"
Proverbs 13:1 "A wise son heeds his father’s instruction, but a mocker does not respond to rebukes."

What about the way we are to share Christs Word?

Colossians 2:2-3 "My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge"
James 3:17 "But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere."

This is good advice Proverbs 29:11 "Fools give full vent to their rage, but the wise bring calm in the end", Proverbs 19:20 "Listen to advice and accept discipline, and at the end you will be counted among the wise."

Regards Tony