I don't think Reincarnation Makes Much Sense

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see one big difference between the two, that you may not have noticed. In heaven/hell, it's the individual person that is rewarded or punished. In reincarnation, that individual person of a single lifetime is dead, gone, kaput, as it is the soul that moves on. So yes, in heaven/hell view there is attachment to the ego, but not to in reincarnation. Of course there are some people who think it's the person that reincarnates, but that's not the traditional understanding. Those folks often think they will be the same gender, have the same interests, etc.

I think I understand that. IMO, the "ego" piece is implied by the idea of reward and punishment.

If your next life that's being rewarded or punished isn't "you," then how could it be a reward or punishment?

 

[Vinayaka]

I think I understand that. IMO, the "ego" piece is implied by the idea of reward and punishment.

If your next life that's being rewarded or punished isn't "you," then how could it be a reward or punishment?

The results due to karma aren't seen by Hindus as reward or punishment. That's a projection from other faiths who can't get their heads outside of the reward/punishment model. There are also two 'you's in play, and sadly they often do get intertwined. There is the 'you' referring to the ego/personality of the one lifetime, and there is the 'you' that refers to the soul and it's sojourn. When English was being developed, I seriously doubt the two concepts existed within that concept. A pronoun taking the place of atman would be useful for these discussions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Most of my religious beliefs come from experiences and personal evidence. The sort of thing where you have an experience and then extrapolate from that to get to something else. I started worshiping Kali cause I had a pretty profound experience. I had some faith in certain practices or the idea that those practices would benefit me and they ended up working etc.

Reincarnation is a pill I have a hard time swallowing. It's not even that it couldn't be true but every time I hear someone explain it to me or tell me about their own past lives I feel like I come away more baffled than helped. I'm not really secular but I think a lot of issues I have with reincarnation / rebirth can be summed up in this article by Doug Smith A Secular Evaluation of Rebirth – Secular Buddhist Association

A few examples included in the article are things like the Buddha claimed to remember at least a hundred thousand past lives. This would easily put him into prehuman ancestors if we just go by the amount of years that would be involved in that. There is also the question about the trustworthiness of past life regression etc.

You can read the article yourself if you are so inclined. Lately folks on here have been talking about reincarnation and it just always seems a bit odd to me. If we have lived thousands upon thousands of previous lives then what does that actually mean? Does that mean that not all of our previous lives were human? If that is the case were they alien or how does that work? How does an animal make any moral choices without higher brain functions. I might be able to buy that a cat or a dog might be moral on some level but a hippo has the encephalization quotient which makes me think it literally doesn't make decisions it just sort of does things. It has the simple brain to body ration of 1/2789. That is lower than a shark.

So why believe in reincarnation? How would you answer questions about time spans and non human ancestors? Is it progressive or just something that happens?

I am not dismissing reincarnation out of hand, studying the upanishads and tantric texts have given me experiences which make me believe in things I never would have i. before. I am willing to change my mind I just don't think I can say reincarnation makes any sense to me at this moment.

Hi. I think that there is a discrepancy between the state of the Great Educators or Prophets such as Christ, Buddha, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah and individuals such as ourselves. These Great Beings spoke of Their own pre existence but with regard to themselves. So Christ was the Word in the beginning etc. Because He was pre existent like Buddha. But as to ourselves my understanding is that we are born, our soul or spirit, at conception not before. Beings which I believe pre existed were Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. They Each had a special power we do not possess. Even thousands of years after Their death They yet still influence billions of minds and hearts daily. Many were tortured and cruelly opposed or killed yet in the end prevailed and established Their Cause all over the world. None can equal Their influence.

Here are a couple of quotes distinguishing the pre existence of the Great Educators from us individuals which I hope you find useful.


The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The Soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 504


The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of his physical body.

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 504

 

[Fool]

Most of my religious beliefs come from experiences and personal evidence. The sort of thing where you have an experience and then extrapolate from that to get to something else. I started worshiping Kali cause I had a pretty profound experience. I had some faith in certain practices or the idea that those practices would benefit me and they ended up working etc.

Reincarnation is a pill I have a hard time swallowing. It's not even that it couldn't be true but every time I hear someone explain it to me or tell me about their own past lives I feel like I come away more baffled than helped. I'm not really secular but I think a lot of issues I have with reincarnation / rebirth can be summed up in this article by Doug Smith A Secular Evaluation of Rebirth – Secular Buddhist Association

A few examples included in the article are things like the Buddha claimed to remember at least a hundred thousand past lives. This would easily put him into prehuman ancestors if we just go by the amount of years that would be involved in that. There is also the question about the trustworthiness of past life regression etc.

You can read the article yourself if you are so inclined. Lately folks on here have been talking about reincarnation and it just always seems a bit odd to me. If we have lived thousands upon thousands of previous lives then what does that actually mean? Does that mean that not all of our previous lives were human? If that is the case were they alien or how does that work? How does an animal make any moral choices without higher brain functions. I might be able to buy that a cat or a dog might be moral on some level but a hippo has the encephalization quotient which makes me think it literally doesn't make decisions it just sort of does things. It has the simple brain to body ration of 1/2789. That is lower than a shark.

So why believe in reincarnation? How would you answer questions about time spans and non human ancestors? Is it progressive or just something that happens?

I am not dismissing reincarnation out of hand, studying the upanishads and tantric texts have given me experiences which make me believe in things I never would of before. I am willing to change my mind I just don't think I can say reincarnation makes any sense to me at this moment.

there is a problem scientifically with this type of mind set. it doesn't follow the scientific method. it gives up after the 1st step. it questions and goes not further. its almost as if the disbeliever/believer want to rely solely on the scientific community to validate/invalidate their life experience.


unlike scientists who actually do research


Children Who Report Memories of Previous Lives - Division of Perceptual Studies

The Science of Reincarnation: UVA psychiatrist Jim Tucker investigates children’s claims of past lives

Academic studies on claimed past-life memories: A scoping review - ScienceDirect




1. The Language Game Problem. This is the problem of our concepts and vocabulary. Because consciousness is such a pervasive concept, the language game we use is crucial to how we come to understand it. Consider that, as this Great Course notes, most Western language systems give us vocabulary that sets us up to make a choice between (a) some form of Materialism or Physicalism versus (b) some form of Mentalism or Idealism or (c) Dualism, which is some kind of combination. Eastern philosophical traditions do not necessarily divide the world up this way.

 

[Fool]

why do our past lives predate mankind, because we span multiple dimensions and lived lives in other dimensions that have physical bodies to enter far longer then in this dimension.

Buddha was clear there are multiple Dimensions.

this makes sense; if consciousness were primary, it would transcend any and all forms in space/time.

 

[Fool]

Most of my religious beliefs come from experiences and personal evidence. The sort of thing where you have an experience and then extrapolate from that to get to something else. I started worshiping Kali cause I had a pretty profound experience. I had some faith in certain practices or the idea that those practices would benefit me and they ended up working etc.

Reincarnation is a pill I have a hard time swallowing. It's not even that it couldn't be true but every time I hear someone explain it to me or tell me about their own past lives I feel like I come away more baffled than helped. I'm not really secular but I think a lot of issues I have with reincarnation / rebirth can be summed up in this article by Doug Smith A Secular Evaluation of Rebirth – Secular Buddhist Association

A few examples included in the article are things like the Buddha claimed to remember at least a hundred thousand past lives. This would easily put him into prehuman ancestors if we just go by the amount of years that would be involved in that. There is also the question about the trustworthiness of past life regression etc.

You can read the article yourself if you are so inclined. Lately folks on here have been talking about reincarnation and it just always seems a bit odd to me. If we have lived thousands upon thousands of previous lives then what does that actually mean? Does that mean that not all of our previous lives were human? If that is the case were they alien or how does that work? How does an animal make any moral choices without higher brain functions. I might be able to buy that a cat or a dog might be moral on some level but a hippo has the encephalization quotient which makes me think it literally doesn't make decisions it just sort of does things. It has the simple brain to body ration of 1/2789. That is lower than a shark.

So why believe in reincarnation? How would you answer questions about time spans and non human ancestors? Is it progressive or just something that happens?

I am not dismissing reincarnation out of hand, studying the upanishads and tantric texts have given me experiences which make me believe in things I never would of before. I am willing to change my mind I just don't think I can say reincarnation makes any sense to me at this moment.

the form doesn't survive. only energy/force does and can be transformed into otherness. associating with the ego to much can lead to narcissism. that which evolves/adapts will change its form. we generally think of healthy as being only physical but it's also spiritua = mental

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...........Here are a couple of quotes distinguishing the pre existence of the Great Educators from us individuals which I hope you find useful.
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The Soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being. Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 504
The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of his physical body.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 504

I can agree that the Soul of Christ existed in the 'spirit world' (meaning Heaven) before Jesus' birth on Earth.
Before God sent His pre-human heavenly Son to live as a human on Earth for us.
I say this because in the Bible all living breathing creation is a living soul - including animal life - Numbers 31:28.
Adam came to life only ' after ' God breathed the ' breath of life ' into life-less Adam - Genesis 2:7
Thus, at death Adam became a life-less soul, a dead soul - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
When Adam's children were born alive they were living souls or persons since conception.
Heavenly Jesus was a spirit person as is his God but one's spirit is Not a person.
In the Bible one's spirit is a neuter " it "(Ecclesiastes 12:7 B) and Not a person.
As electricity can bring light to a light bulb but pull the plug and the light goes out.
So, at Jesus' death he was Not reincarnated but it was lights out, so to speak, until his God resurrected dead Jesus back to his original pre-human heavenly spirit person life.
Thus, once we die the 'light of life' (the spirit of life) goes out just like a burned-out light bulb.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that I do not believe in transmigration ie crossing over to an animal in a reincarnation. I do believe in shapeshifting but I do not believe the spirit is actually attached to the animal in that case. I believe it is like the difference between God through us (Father), God with us (Jesus) and God in us (Paraclete)

 

[Muffled]

It doesn't.

I believe you might as well say nothing as say that. Your statement does not make logical sense.

 

[Muffled]

"Firewood, after becoming ash, does not again become firewood. Similarly, human beings, after death, do not live again.”
- Eihei Dogen, founder of Soto Zen.

Rebirth as I best understand it is in the continuing now. I'm not expecting to come back as a frog. At best a few of my molecules will find their way into a big cat.

(Reincarnation of a soul or a self are obviously non-starters as a Buddhist, since Buddhism denies the true existence of both).

I believe that is not what reincarnation is. That is resurrection and something God does by creation.

I believe you are implying that molecules have consciousness. As far as I know they do not.

I believe that shows either ignorance or a lack of reality.

 

[Altfish]

I believe you might as well say nothing as say that. Your statement does not make logical sense.

The thread Title was ....

I don't think Reincarnation Makes Much Sense

I posted, "It doesn't"

Why does it not make sense?

 

[Secret Chief]

I believe that is not what reincarnation is. That is resurrection and something God does by creation.

I believe you are implying that molecules have consciousness. As far as I know they do not.

I believe that shows either ignorance or a lack of reality.

As I said, I do not accept the notion of reincarnation.