I don't support feminist movements

[Samael_Khan]

You treat it in the same as any other instance of falsely accusing someone of a crime. Why do we need special extra actions just for when women do it? That is not equality.

You actually have a very good point!

It should be "The problem here is how do we prevent people who are making false accusations from speaking out."

I didn't even realize my prejudice when I was writing that point. It was influenced by what I have seen around me, that women are the ones making the false accusations. But obviously my own experience is extremely limited what I said shouldn't be restricted to women.

Thanks for the correction!

 

[Tambourine]

@KAT-KAT
I don't support your lack of support.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

@KAT-KAT
I don't support your lack of support.

That's fine. I may get what I deserve. Though I tried to convey that at the time of posting the OP, I was more 60% against feminist movements / 40% for them. But I think the title of the thread combined with the fact debaters often have to slip into sides or be seen as a side to tackle an argument, means I may have gotten cemented as "point blank against feminism".

 

[Tambourine]

That's fine. I may get what I deserve. Though I tried to convey that at the time of posting the OP, I was more 60% against feminist movements / 40% for them. But I think the title of the thread combined with the fact debaters often have to slip into sides or be seen as a side to tackle an argument, means I may have gotten cemented as "point blank against feminism".

I don't see your position that way, but I do believe that you harbor some misinformation with regards to feminism or #MeToo (with the possible prior misunderstanding that the two are synonymous).

I've decided I don't really support the feminist movement to the extent of being a strong advocate of it. They've done some good things. But things like the #MeToo movement which is often promoted by the feminists I've seen, have done an equal amount of destruction and good, and a lot of feminists are TERFs which can be harmful to me as a transgender person. I'm not completely against women speaking out in #MeToo, I just want there to be proof before destroying another person's reputation.

Whose reputation do you believe has been destroyed without proof?

And remember, #MeToo supporters can have allegations against them too, as well as feminists.

You don't need to use a hypothetical, we know for a fact that a few female #MeToo supporters have been accused of harassment or other kinds of sexual misconduct.

It is also flat out wrong to believe that men have not been part of the #MeToo movement from the very beginning. Brendan Fraser for example was one of the earliest high profile supporters coming out as a victim of sexual harassment.

 

[Lyndon]

Kat Kat, Do you want equal pay to men when you have a job?? Then you're supporting feminism.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I don't see your position that way, but I do believe that you harbor some misinformation with regards to feminism or #MeToo (with the possible prior misunderstanding that the two are synonymous).

They aren't but feminists often subscribe to #MeToo.

Whose reputation do you believe has been destroyed without proof?

Other people have mentioned a few candidates in this thread.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Kat Kat, Do you want equal pay to men when you have a job?? Then you're supporting feminism.

I talked about "feminist movements". That can be seen a little differently.

 

[Jesster]

But I think the point is to try and create an environment were women feel empowered to speak out, and to act our against this kind of abuse when it happens. So your speaking out and subsequent action helps create that environment for them. And also all the other women who speak out and take action. I really thing this is what #MeToo is all about. Forcing the whole of society to not only recognize the problem, but to recognize the solutions, too. And those solutions do require that women speak out, and take action. And the more they do so, the easier it will be for other women to do so in the future. Even if men learn nothing, and continue to behave badly, at least the women will learn how to respond, effectively.

It's great when people are able to come forward and take action against their abusers. I've just never been in an opportune time or place for it. It's also the largest source of the PTSD I've had to deal with. I'm willing to talk about it, but I couldn't handle opening that can of worms again for real. People also tend not to take my side because I don't speak with any confidence. But I can at least share my stories so other people can learn from what I've dealt with.

 

[Tambourine]

Other people have mentioned a few candidates in this thread.

You mean Chris Hardwick, who was immediately reinstated within a single month of accusations airing, and immediately cleared of all suspicion by a robust network of supporters?

That's a "destroyed" career and reputation? Are you actually serious?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You mean Chris Hardwick, who was immediately reinstated within a single month of accusations airing, and immediately cleared of all suspicion by a robust network of supporters?

That's a "destroyed" career and reputation? Are you actually serious?

That's just an example to show that the Me, Too (still a very unfortunate name) movement does have some problems. A mere blog post with no evidence should not be enough to ruin someone's career and reputation.

 

[Tambourine]

A mere blog post with no evidence should not be enough to ruin someone's career and reputation.

And it wasn't.

So what material issue are you complaining about?
The simple fact that nobody is vetting people who talk publically on Social Media?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I support feminism sans the transphobia. Men clearly can benefit from it, since being critical of toxic patriarchal notions like men not being victims of sexual violence or should lack emotions is a step in a positive direction.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And it wasn't.

It was and then it was reversed. You seem to be ignoring that it did happen in the first place.

 

[Tambourine]

It was and then it was reversed. You seem to be ignoring that it did happen in the first place.

So a man retaining his job and reputation after numerous people came out in his support counts as "destruction".

What do you propose to ensure no woman ever destroys a man's reputation like that?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So a man retaining his job and reputation after numerous people came out in his support counts as "destruction".

And because if this, no woman should speak out before being intensely vetted to some nebulous standard, decided by... who, exactly?

No, I'm saying we shouldn't automatically believe everything people say and then demonize those the allegations are against. People do lie, people do get vengeful after bad breakups, etc. This should be common sense, but it seems that common sense doesn't actually exist. You listen to the person but then you look into it more before "cancelling" the other person.

 

[Tambourine]

No, I'm saying we shouldn't automatically believe everything people say and then demonize those the allegations are against.

Do you assume all women are believed "automatically"?
What if people really did look closely into these issues, and simply came down on the woman's side, but turned out to be mistaken?
Or do you believe such a situation could not exist?

People do lie, people do get vengeful after bad breakups, etc. This should be common sense, but it seems that common sense doesn't actually exist. You listen to the person but then you look into it more before "cancelling" the other person.

How do you propose people "look into" interpersonal relationships of people they don't know privately?

Should we just refrain from listening to victims calling out private abuse if it's difficult to verify for outsiders?
That doesn't sound like a viable option to me personally.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why do you assume all women are believed "automatically"?

Why do you assume that's what I said, when I didn't? But one of the slogans of the MeToo movement is "believe women" or "believe all women", whichever one it is.

How do you propose people "look into" interpersonal relationships of people they don't know privately?

Exactly. That's why people shouldn't be making serious allegations in blog posts for all to see. If something was done wrong, they should direct their complaints to the proper channels (the police, their employer, social services orgs, and so on).

 

[Tambourine]

Why do you assume that's what I said, when I didn't? But one of the slogans of the MeToo movement is "believe women" or "believe all women", whichever one it is.

Exactly. That's why people shouldn't be making serious allegations in blog posts for all to see. If something was done wrong, they should direct their complaints to the proper channels (the police, their employer and so on).

And if they can't get heard by the "proper channels"? Male abuse victims in particular face an uphill battle getting even acknowledged as vicims in the first place, let alone getting heard and believed.

If they can't get any justice from the "proper channels", then should they just shut up and disappear?
Isn't that exactly what their abusers would want?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And if they can't get heard by the "proper channels"? Male abuse victims in particular face an uphill battle getting even acknowledged as vicims in the first place, let alone getting heard and believed.

If they can't get any justice from the "proper channels", then should they just shut up and disappear?
Isn't that exactly what their abusers would want?

Then they should speak about it, especially if the police won't help them. But just posting hearsay helps no one.

 

[Tambourine]

Then they should speak about it, especially if the police won't help them. But just posting hearsay helps no one.

Are accounts from personal experience "hearsay"?