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I don't believe it. I actually agree with AOC on something

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Twilight Hue, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I'm well aware.
    Are you saying that Facebook is the cause of current hostilities?
    I see them as merely one of the players, along with news media,
    comedians, other forums (including RF), politicians, & the masses.
     
  2. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    If the price of achieving the death of capitalism is that I can't post on internet forums, sign me up. Our system is killing the biosphere and drastic measures are our only hope. I would burn the US Constitution in a second.
     
  3. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    Social media is magnifying things way beyond what would normally occur.
     
  4. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    There must might could be a few other
    things given up in the switch to socialism.
    So I urge caution...it's a frying pan vs
    fire thing.
    An alternative....
    Take environmental degradation seriously.
    Do something about it that directly addresses it.
     
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I agree.
    But be careful about urging government regulation of speech.
    And about believing that switching to socialism will make
    the solution to problems just happen.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    As much as I have strong reservations about Fb, nevertheless they're a private company doing what private coupanies and corporations do-- try and make money. They are not a monopoly as there's other such forums.

    What I am worried about is the effect of Instagram especially on our children, and I think it's especially parents that should step in and either not allow their kids into it or to limit it, as I think they should do with some other things as well. We very much limited our kids to tv back in the 70's-80's, and it had to effect of encouraging them to do more imaginative and constructive things. And they also learned that saying "I'm bored!" would not be a smart thing.
     
  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Facebook gives millions of people what they want.
    How dare they. :mad:
    That's the government's job.
     
  8. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    You mean there are capitalist countries without free speech? How shocking. (I'm being sarcastic, in case anyone is wondering.)

    Well, you've already said as much, numerous times - or at least associated me with those historical figures.

    Of course, I could also be just against capitalism just on that basis alone, without necessarily bringing up socialism. Since we live in the United States, it seems more relevant to look at the system we live under, rather than focusing on the systems of other countries. You're the one who always brings up other countries, but many Americans' perceptions of the outside world are often skewed and riddled with ignorance and brazen propaganda.

    Honestly, I'd rather just talk about our system here, the one we live under and which has far greater influence over our lives than NK or Cuba.

    It was the late 1980s, and little did I know at the time that they were just about to unravel.

    But voting can still matter. I've heard many people say they vote for the individual not the party.

    On the other hand, what have you heard people say about how much voting matters in America? A lot of people don't have faith in the system, thinking it's rigged (and this attitude has been discernable long before this past election).

    The difference comes in its intentions. Capitalism is, by design, meant to increase as much misery to the population as profitable (although that's been ameliorated in the West by liberalism and progressivism designed to rein in capitalism, but those ideals have been under heavy attack since the Reagan years).

    Socialism, by design, intends to bring about equality, an equitable distribution of resources, and an adequate standard of living for all. And as I said, I've been there, and it wasn't really as bad as people think it is. It's not luxurious by Western standards. People who are spoiled and used to instant gratification and living in luxurious mansions with servants waiting on them - I can see why they wouldn't like socialism. But for most average people working average jobs and living in average homes - life is just what it is.

    Actually, for most of my life, I've heard of right-wingers, anti-communists, and other armchair Cold Warriors make proclamations that all of Europe is socialist. Most of the time, those kinds of inaccuracies can be attributed to the capitalist side of the spectrum, at least when looking at America's political culture and the attitudes it fosters.

    Capitalists pick arguments out of a hat whenever it suits them. They argue against economic programs that they have in Scandinavia, because "that's socialism." It's the capitalists who seem woefully confused on this particular point.

    But as far as denial goes, let's talk about Pakistan again. They're capitalist, you know. In fact, most countries in the world are capitalist, even if they exist as puppet or servant states of capitalist regimes. You're so quick to compare NK or Cuba to the United States, but what about comparing Cuba to South Sudan? That would be comparing a socialist country with a capitalist country, yet neither you nor anyone else in the pro-capitalist seems willing or able to address the existence of countries like that.

    Your constant refrain of painting capitalism as paradise and socialism as hell might play well in Peoria, but it's just not good enough to pass muster in anything other than an 8th grade social studies class.

    It's not really a matter of faith or trust. It's an understanding of history and its causes and effects. There's only so much abuse a population is willing to take before they rise up and fight their oppressors. When one can see the same recurring pattern throughout history, then one might see it as an inevitability and a consequence of human behavior.

    Some people understand it; even capitalists have understood it in the past, which is why many of them supported the Keynesian policies of FDR all the way up to Nixon (who was also a Keynesian). I just recently posted an article from Time from 50 years ago discussing Nixon's price controls and other government regulations on free market capitalism - much of which was opposed by conservative capitalists and by many Reaganites later on.

    That's the problem we have now, because capitalists don't think like that anymore. Now they're more of the Trump or Gordon Gekko variety.

    Exactly, so why are you criticizing my idea that people should be vigilant and aware of the dangers of capitalism?
     
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  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The rest is TLTR.
    Perhaps you've missed my many many claims
    that capitalism does not guarantee liberty.
    But liberty can exist under capitalism.
    Contrast this with socialism, wherein every
    single case of it has led to oppression.

    But instead of addressing this, you claim that
    because capitalism has some problems, we
    must switch to socialism. This argument is
    oblivious to its far worse problems.
     
  10. Bodie

    Bodie Member

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    While I am in favour of keeping an eye on these companies as far as censorship, bannings, algorithms etc. I see the attempt to blame them for poor personal choices and actions much like blaming music and video games for the same. We have seen this over and over, it's just the next "they are coming for your children" monster under the bed.
     
  11. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    One small issue..

    While better than socialism by far, there is a real threat garnered via special interest and lobbying that has certainly affected freedom by the practice of buying politictions and policys at the expense of peoples freedom and liberty.
     
  12. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Ah, but I have addressed that very point, time and time again. It's just that you and I have vastly different ideas as to what constitutes "oppression," as well as defining "every single case of it."

    It may "TLTR" to you, but if you're not even reading what I write, how can you be so confident about what (you say) I don't address? Maybe it's in the part that you don't want to take the time to read, and yet, here you are, chastising me for not addressing things. I address everything.

    List of socialist states - Wikipedia

    If you look at this link, it says that Portugal and India are socialist, yet they are also considered relatively free countries. There may be some elements of oppression, just as we have oppression here in the freedom-loving USA.

    But then, there's oppression and then there's oppression.
     
  13. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    LoL.
    Facebook had a blackout :eek: Break it up!
    Oh, the injustice! Six whole hours without Facebook!?!
    They are hurting democracy!

    OR

    The Angle:
    Facebook decided that maybe it shouldn't take down everything just because AOC says it's a lie. Inconceivable!
    'So you won't take down lies?': Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez challenges Facebook CEO
     
  14. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    That's one of many problems to deal with.
     
  15. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    There are more moderate (if implausible) alternatives within the current constitution, even if you are on the revolutionary end of the spectrum. The proposal for a "second bill of rights" would provide a right for education, healthcare and other social and economic rights dates and dates back to FDR. It has since been picked up by Socialist and Communist Parties in the US with a "Bill of Rights Socialism".

    Alternatively you could have an "Article V Convention" in which two-thirds of the states (34 states now) call a new constitutional convention to Amend or replace the current Constitution of the United States. You could then have a Second Constitutional Convention to draft a new constitution.

    Various movements for Secession from the United States exist but it would require an Amendment to the Constitution to do so, meaning two-third of both chambers of Congress and 38 states legislatures would have to pass the Amendment allowing a state to secede.

    Here's a clip of FDR's speech if you are interested.

     
    #55 Laika, Oct 6, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Which socialist countries were not oppressive
    according to your values?
    I have many distractions.
    So long repetitive posts with many diversions don't inspire reading.
    Yet both have capitalism according to your own source.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Portugal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India
    Socialism is the people owning the means of production.
    On the liberty spectrum, socialist states all dwell at
    the oppression end, eg, N Korea, Cuba, USSR, PRC.
    Is this a claim of equivalence?
     
  17. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Well, as I said, I've visited the USSR. Didn't seem that bad to me.

    By what standard are you making your judgments here? If you're saying they're oppressive by how they treat their prisoners, then perhaps we can discuss the treatment of prisoners here in the U.S. (especially during the 1930s, since that's really the only decade you're judging the USSR by).

    Well, okay, but just don't say that I don't address these issues or that I'm not answering your arguments, because I am.

    I would see it more as a matter of degree. In your view, what percentage of the means of production (or which industries) have to be owned collectively in order to be considered a socialist country? If it's 99% socialist and 1% capitalist, does that automatically make it capitalist because they have capitalism.

    There are capitalist countries which are worse, eg, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, South Sudan, Chad, Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia, Mexico, Chile, and many many more. Besides, I remember you once told me that PRC is communist "in name only." Do you no longer hold that view?

    Not equivalence, just different degrees. It also depends on whose ox is gored.
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    This statement suggests not understanding my oft stated
    preference for capitalism, ie, that tit offers the possibility
    for liberty & prosperity, unlike socialism, which has been
    universally dismal. Finding bad examples of capitalist
    countries is thus irrelevant to the argument.
     
  19. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Socialism has never been "universally dismal." You keep saying that, but you have no support for it, other than the standard McCarthyite propaganda, which is no evidence at all.

    And my examples of bad capitalist countries is very relevant to the argument, because it's all part of the same globalist capitalist economy. None of these countries operate in a vacuum.
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I've cited socialist countries, eg, N Korea.
    You've just not admitted they're socialist, preferring to claim
    that capitalist countries like Denmark are "socialist". So your
    posts are naught but Stalinist propaganda.
     
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