I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered

[Dawnofhope]

No problem, It is an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are correct I do not believe as you do that God creating a new heavens and a new earth is symbolic at all. The reason is that other scriptures such as 2 Peter 3 sheds more light and understanding as to how God makes the new heavens and a new earth which IMO proves that this is not sybolic but a literal new heavens and a new earth. I believe the scriptures show that God will make the new heavens and new earth literally as outlined in Isaiah 65:17-19; Isaiah 66:22-23; 2 Peter 3:13; and Revelation 21:1 etc.

Let's have a look at what God's Word says in relation to how the new heavens and the new earth will be made that proves that this is a literal event and not symbolic (IMO).

2 PETER 3:3-13
[3], KNOWING THIS FIRST, THAT THERE SHALL COME IN THE LAST DAYS SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts,
[4], And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5], FOR THIS THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF, THAT BY THE WORD OF GOD THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD, AND THE EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER:
[6], WHEREBY THE WORLD (G2889 inhabitants) THAT THEN WAS, BEING OVERFLOWED WITH WATER, PERISHED (G622 literally destroy and die)
[7], BUT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, WHICH ARE NOW, BY THE SAME WORD ARE KEPT IN STORE, RESERVED TO FIRE AGAINST THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND PERDITION OF UNGODLY MEN.
[8], But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9], THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, AS SOME MEN COUNT SLACKNESS; BUT IS LONG-SUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD , PERISH (G622 literally destroy and die), BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.
[10], BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT; IN THE WHICH THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS (G3928 παρέρχομαι persish) AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP.
[11], SEEING THEN THAT ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE DISSOLVED (G3089 λύω;luō means destroyed), what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12], LOOKING FOR AND HASTENING TO THE COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, WHEREIN THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED (G3089 λύω;luō means destroyed), AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT
[13], Nevertheless we, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWELLS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Looking at some of the Greek word meaning here makes it very clear that this is a literal event and not symbolic IMO. I have added some sections in red (my emphasis) to some of the Greek word definitions in the scriptures above FYI. For example, 2 Peter 3:10. ἥξει δὲ [ἡ] ἡμέρα κυρίου ὡς κλέπτης] ἥξει δέ stands first by way of emphasis, in contrast to what precedes and what comes after: “but come will the day of the Lord.” These words express the certainty of the coming of the day of judgment, and ὡς κλέπτης its unexpected suddenness; cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (Matthew 24:43): τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέρας, 2 Peter 3:12, shows that κυρίου is here also equivalent to Θεοῦ (not to Χριστοῦ; Schott). Also you will see the examples given before hand in 2 Peter 3:5-7 is in reference to the earth being destroyed by the flood and will be destroyed after the second coming again by fire.

ἐν ᾗ [οἱ] οὐρανοὶ ῥοιζηδὸν παρελεύσονται] This relative clause states “the event of that day, which makes it essentially what it is” (Schott). ῥοιζηδὸν, ἅπ. λεγ., equivalent to μετὰ ῥοίζου, is best taken in the sense peculiar to the word: “with rushing swiftness” (Wiesinger, Schott, Hofmann; Pape, s.v.); Oecumenius understands it of the crackling of the destroying fire; de Wette, on the other hand, of the crash of the falling together. With παρελεύσονται, cf. Matthew 24:35; Matthew 5:18; Luke 16:17; Revelation 21:1. As to how the heavens shall pass away, see 2 Peter 3:12.

How the heavens and the earth will pass away is explained in the v10 “the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth and the works therein will be burned up. How the heavens and earth will pass away is further explained in 2 Peter 3:12 “the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved (pass away) and the elements shall melt with fervent heat from fire. The passing away is by the fire which procedes it.

I believe the scriptures above are clear as to what it means and how God will make “a new heaven and a new earth” and how the old heavens and earth will pass away. The old heavens and earth will pass away and will be destroyed by fire. The ungodly (those who practice sin and do not believe and follow God’s Word) will be destroyed. The new heavens and the new earth according to the scriptures are only for the righteous (those who do not practice sin and believe and follow God’s Word) and only those who practice rightouesness will dwell in the new heavens and the new earth *2 Peter 3:13.

Finally you might also notice that 2 PETER 3 also comparing how the new earth is made to destroying the world with a flood and fire also links it directly to the "THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT" and "THE DAY OF THE LORD" *2 Peter 3:7-10. If you do a word study of the day of the Lord the scriptures link this to the "END OF THE WORLD" and the judgments of God. See also *Isaiah 2:12; Isaiah 13:4-6; Isaiah 13:9-11; Isaiah 24:21-22; Jeremiah 46:10; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Ezekiel 30:3-4; Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1-2; Joel 3:12-14; Zephaniah 3:8; Amos 5:18-20; Revelation 6:15-17

This is why I believe that it is impossible the new heavens and the new earth references are symbolic. The scriptures show that this will be a literal event. God will make the new heavens and the new earth after destroying this one with fire as it was in the past by flood to put an end to ungodly men and women and it is why God is calling on all people everywhere to repent and believe his Word. He is not willing that anyone should perish *2 Peter 3:9.

Hope this is helpful

Thank you for your considered response and it is indeed satisfying to consider the lofty words communicated by the Prophets of old, Jesus Himself and His apostles. Its really helped a great deal to bring clarity to the OP topic at hand. I agree that the destruction of earth and heaven are not just symbolic and literal as well. So when Isaiah spoke it was ominous words as Jerusalem and the Temple would literally be destroyed by the Babylonians. So when Jesus spoke on His final Sermon as recorded in Matthew 24 He predicted the destruction of the Temple which we know happened 70 AD along with Jerusalem. So in both these examples both earth and heaven really did pass away suddenly and dramatically as if by a flood. However the Teachings of the Torah endured as did the Teachings of Jesus through the Gospels. So we would probably agree on a further event of series of events that would lead again to the passing away of earth and heavens. I'm sure we can agree the destruction of the Jerusalem and the Temple really did happen not just symbolically through the Babylonians and Romans. I suspect you may struggle to connect these events to some of the Biblical verses you have mentioned. If you agree some of the Biblical verses can be directly attributable to these two calamities we could apply some of the learnings from known history to what a further event may look like where God creates a "new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered".

 

[Dawnofhope]

Although to another

I believe God only ever called literary prophets from his own Chosen nation, Israel. Since Muhammad claimed to have descended from the line of Ishmael, not Isaac, this would place him outside the realm of acceptability as a prophet.

But scripture tells us that from Ishmael shall come a great nation (Genesis 17:20). That doesn't sound as if its rejecting the notion that descendants of Ishmael may become Prophets. In fact appears to be affirming just that. It is simply ethnocentric thinking that limits God to imagine He wouldn't allow for Prophets outide Jewish ancestory.

The Qur'an was composed over a period of 23 years, and by one man. The Bible took over 1500 years to complete, and has more than 40 writers claiming authority from God. Which of these two books would appear to have the greatest credibility as the Word of God?

You argument here is flawed. Muhammad affirmed the Prophets in the Christian Bible, He did not reject any of Them. So God's Revelation through Muhammad is simply a continuation and fulfilment of the line of Prophets that had come before including the Hebrew Prophets, just as Jesus whose ministry was only 3 years was founded on the Torah.

I often hear it said by Muslims that the Bible has been corrupted by man, but the Bible has incredibly strong internal cohesiveness. This strengthens the view that the Qur'an must be at fault where differences exist between the two books.

There is not one verse in the Quran that rejects the Torah Moses brought or the Gospel Jesus taught. Although many Muslims do believe the Bible to be corrupted, such a view is completely unsupported by the Quran itself.

The differences also appear to be insurmountable, especially given that the crucifixion of Jesus is denied, and with it the doctrine of salvation from sin.
What do you think?

It is true that most Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified but it is based on a literal interpretation of two verses that most likely mean, the killed Him but they didn't kill His Spirit. The verses in question:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
Quran 4:157-158

 

[Redemptionsong]

Although to another



But scripture tells us that from Ishmael shall come a great nation (Genesis 17:20). That doesn't sound as if its rejecting the notion that descendants of Ishmael may become Prophets. In fact appears to be affirming just that. It is simply ethnocentric thinking that limits God to imagine He wouldn't allow for Prophets outide Jewish ancestory.



You argument here is flawed. Muhammad affirmed the Prophets in the Christian Bible, He did not reject any of Them. So God's Revelation through Muhammad is simply a continuation and fulfilment of the line of Prophets that had come before including the Hebrew Prophets, just as Jesus whose ministry was only 3 years was founded on the Torah.



There is not one verse in the Quran that rejects the Torah Moses brought or the Gospel Jesus taught. Although many Muslims do believe the Bible to be corrupted, such a view is completely unsupported by the Quran itself.



It is true that most Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified but it is based on a literal interpretation of two verses that most likely mean, the killed Him but they didn't kill His Spirit. The verses in question:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
Quran 4:157-158

Hi Adrian,
I have used the term 'literary prophets' to refer to prophets that have been called on by God to contribute to His written Word. I understand that others have received prophecy, and am aware that one of the manifestations of the gift of Holy Spirit is the word of prophecy [1 Corinthians 12:10]. Within the Church there are thousands who give words of prophecy.

The claim made by Muhammad is that his written record [the Qur'an] is a prophecy that builds on what is found in the Bible. Given that the Bible reveals the nature of God's dealings with mankind from the creation of the present heaven and earth, to the creation of a new heaven and earth, I cannot see that there is room for anything new!

If Muhammad's message were so fundamental to humanity, it would have appeared in the Bible, not estranged from it. Let's not forget, it's one man's word attempting to embed itself within the Bible record. If the Qur'an does not fit with the Bible, then it must be the Qur'an that's at fault, not the Bible.

So, we ask ourselves, what is Islam offering that has not been offered in the Bible? Under the law of Moses, people had the opportunity to demonstrate their works before God. Is this not what Muslims are also doing? You might want to call it faith with works following, but such works are still based on an individual's personal, sinful, existence.

The message of the Qur'an is that God is one. He exists in heaven and does not come to dwell on earth with men. This means that God's Son, and Saviour, has not been present on our earth. Without God being present within a man, you cannot have a sinless man. Without a sinless man [the Lamb of God] to take our punishment for sin [death], you still have sin.

So whichever way you read the Surah on crucifixion, the Jesus mentioned there by Muhammad cannot be the sinless Son of God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

so you think that washing yourself in someone's blood is going to confer some benefit on you? that's warped. you havent participated in any blood rituals have you?

Deep cleansing, for sure. The blood of Jesus Christ was shed for all of us, but only those who receive him by faith get cleansed.

 

[chris baron]

Deep cleansing, for sure. The blood of Jesus Christ was shed for all of us, but only those who receive him by faith get cleansed.

are you promoting blood ritual then? i don't know i can't tell.

 

[Redemptionsong]

are you promoting blood ritual then? i don't know i can't tell.

No. There are no 'blood rituals' amongst born-again believers, to my knowledge. The blood of Jesus Christ was shed two thousand years ago, but the effects of his sinless sacrifice are felt by all who truly believe.

I believe all true worship is in spirit and in truth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi Adrian,
I have used the term 'literary prophets' to refer to prophets that have been called on by God to contribute to His written Word. I understand that others have received prophecy, and am aware that one of the manifestations of the gift of Holy Spirit is the word of prophecy [1 Corinthians 12:10]. Within the Church there are thousands who give words of prophecy.

You can use any term you like, but it needs to make sense and have a basis in reality. Much of what was written in the Hebrew Bible, was most likely passed down through oral traditions long before being written. So I would simply use the term Prophet for many characters such as Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel.

The gift of Prophecy was undoubtedly a characteristic of the Apostles and some of the early Christians. You can you have hundreds of Prophets in your church but none that any scholar of religion would recognise. Who are these people and what are their works? I’m most likely to recognise them as false prophets rather than true Prophets in the Biblical or Quranic sense,

I would identify Moses as being more than a Prophet as the Torah is foundational to Judaism in much the same way the Gospels are to Christianity.

So immediately we have issues with terminology.

The claim made by Muhammad is that his written record [the Qur'an] is a prophecy that builds on what is found in the Bible. Given that the Bible reveals the nature of God's dealings with mankind from the creation of the present heaven and earth, to the creation of a new heaven and earth, I cannot see that there is room for anything new!

I understand that Muhammad had a Revelation from God that was spoken and never written by Him. His Words were written by His Followers and compiled during His Lifetime unlike the Gospels that were composed of stories passed down by early Christians and eventually recorded by anonymous authors who were most likely not first hand witnesses to the events they recalled.

Muhammad’s audiences were the pagan tribesmen of the Arabian Peninsula whom He convinced to turn away from polytheism and be like the Christians and Jews to worship the One true God,

If Muhammad's message were so fundamental to humanity, it would have appeared in the Bible, not estranged from it. Let's not forget, it's one man's word attempting to embed itself within the Bible record. If the Qur'an does not fit with the Bible, then it must be the Qur'an that's at fault, not the Bible.

Let’s not forget that none of the New Testament appears in the Tanakh as most Jews do not recognise Jesus as being worthy of being mentioned in their books. Just because Jews don’t recognise Christ doesn’t mean Christ isn’t the Son of God anymore than Christians failing to recognise Muhammad means He isn’t a Messenger of God. So the standard of truth is not what either Jews or Christians believe and choose to add or leave out of their Sacred writings.

So, we ask ourselves, what is Islam offering that has not been offered in the Bible? Under the law of Moses, people had the opportunity to demonstrate their works before God. Is this not what Muslims are also doing? You might want to call it faith with works following, but such works are still based on an individual's personal, sinful, existence.

We have the Quran as a basis to establish Muhammad’s credentials as we do the Gospels and Torah for Christ and Moses. They are all based on God’s Revelation though these Great men. Unfortunately we have very little information about the life of Christ other than what is recorded in the New Testament to substantiate any claims about the actual life of Christ.

There are plenty of examples of God Revealing Himself through imperfect Prophets in the Hebrew Bible. So character faults, perceived or otherwise are not the sole criterion for which to establish Prophethood.

The message of the Qur'an is that God is one. He exists in heaven and does not come to dwell on earth with men. This means that God's Son, and Saviour, has not been present on our earth. Without God being present within a man, you cannot have a sinless man. Without a sinless man [the Lamb of God] to take our punishment for sin [death], you still have sin.

That has so many logical problems and misunderstandings I’m not sure where to begin. Do you believe that Jesus being the ‘Son of God’ is like how we would have children or perhaps something else?

So whichever way you read the Surah on crucifixion, the Jesus mentioned there by Muhammad cannot be the sinless Son of God.

Biblical and Quranic accounts of Christ can be reconciled if we recognise that man’s understanding of both books are different from what Christ and Muhammad intended. But if Christians insist on their understandings and beliefs as being true as do Muslims then reconciliation is impossible.

 

[chris baron]

Deep cleansing, for sure. The blood of Jesus Christ was shed for all of us, but only those who receive him by faith get cleansed.

what a world we live in. people praising the slow death of some innocent victim claiming that it's beneficial.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You can use any term you like, but it needs to make sense and have a basis in reality. Much of what was written in the Hebrew Bible, was most likely passed down through oral traditions long before being written. So I would simply use the term Prophet for many characters such as Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel.

The gift of Prophecy was undoubtedly a characteristic of the Apostles and some of the early Christians. You can you have hundreds of Prophets in your church but none that any scholar of religion would recognise. Who are these people and what are their works? I’m most likely to recognise them as false prophets rather than true Prophets in the Biblical or Quranic sense,

I would identify Moses as being more than a Prophet as the Torah is foundational to Judaism in much the same way the Gospels are to Christianity.

So immediately we have issues with terminology.



I understand that Muhammad had a Revelation from God that was spoken and never written by Him. His Words were written by His Followers and compiled during His Lifetime unlike the Gospels that were composed of stories passed down by early Christians and eventually recorded by anonymous authors who were most likely not first hand witnesses to the events they recalled.

Muhammad’s audiences were the pagan tribesmen of the Arabian Peninsula whom He convinced to turn away from polytheism and be like the Christians and Jews to worship the One true God,



Let’s not forget that none of the New Testament appears in the Tanakh as most Jews do not recognise Jesus as being worthy of being mentioned in their books. Just because Jews don’t recognise Christ doesn’t mean Christ isn’t the Son of God anymore than Christians failing to recognise Muhammad means He isn’t a Messenger of God. So the standard of truth is not what either Jews or Christians believe and choose to add or leave out of their Sacred writings.



We have the Quran as a basis to establish Muhammad’s credentials as we do the Gospels and Torah for Christ and Moses. They are all based on God’s Revelation though these Great men. Unfortunately we have very little information about the life of Christ other than what is recorded in the New Testament to substantiate any claims about the actual life of Christ.

There are plenty of examples of God Revealing Himself through imperfect Prophets in the Hebrew Bible. So character faults, perceived or otherwise are not the sole criterion for which to establish Prophethood.



That has so many logical problems and misunderstandings I’m not sure where to begin. Do you believe that Jesus being the ‘Son of God’ is like how we would have children or perhaps something else?



Biblical and Quranic accounts of Christ can be reconciled if we recognise that man’s understanding of both books are different from what Christ and Muhammad intended. But if Christians insist on their understandings and beliefs as being true as do Muslims then reconciliation is impossible.

I do not believe that reconciliation is possible because Jesus Christ stately emphatically, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'

As Alexander Cruden, the compiler of Cruden's Concordance, once wrote, 'Jesus Christ is called the way because it is by him alone that believers obtain eternal life, and an entrance into heaven. He is the way to heaven, by the doctrine which he taught; by his death, by which he purchased this heavenly inheritance for the elect; by his holy life and conversation, setting us an example that we should follow in his steps; and by the influence of his Spirit, whereby believers are sanctified, and made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.'

How can numerous contradictions between holy scriptures be anything other than an irreconcilable difference?

For example, in the Bible it says that Abraham took Isaac to Mount Moriah to offer him as a burnt offering [Genesis 22]. In the Qur'an [Surah 37?], Abraham is said to have taken Ishmael to be sacrificed.

Most importantly of all, the centrality of the Suffering Servant is reduced to a side-note in the Qur'an. The crucifixion (and resurrection) of Jesus is not accepted by the majority of Muslims, and all claims to divine Sonship [along with the trinity] are rejected. This means that there is no baptism in the Holy Spirit, and therefore no spiritual body, or Church.

So, according to the Qur'an, true Christianity doesn't exist!

 

[Redemptionsong]

what a world we live in. people praising the slow death of some innocent victim claiming that it's beneficial.

How thankful I am that Jesus Christ was prepared to take the punishment for my sin! As he said, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' [John 15:13]

 

[Dawnofhope]

I do not believe that reconciliation is possible because Jesus Christ stately emphatically, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'

The Words spoken by Jesus in John 14:6 were in the lead up to His crucifixion and He had just informed His disciples of His imminent martyrdom. They were understandably distressed and Jesus was comforting them. John 14:6 is a clear restatement of a central truth throughout the Gospel that Jesus was the Promised Messiah as foretold in the Hebrew scripture. The verse is also one of seven 'I AM' statements in the Gospel of John that were most likely an allusion to God Himself when He Revealed Himself to Moses (Exodus 3:14). What the statement clearly is not about is a rejection of other religions such as Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism. Although Buddhism and Hinduism had been around about five centuries and eight millenia respectivefully, Jesus's audience was exclusively Jewish. There was no knowledge or disocurse around these religions. Islam wasn't to come onto the scene for another six hundred years. So the statement is not a denial of other religions which is how Christians commonly misunderstand and misuse this verse. To the contrary Jesus affirmed the reality of other faiths when He said:

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:16

As Alexander Cruden, the compiler of Cruden's Concordance, once wrote, 'Jesus Christ is called the way because it is by him alone that believers obtain eternal life, and an entrance into heaven. He is the way to heaven, by the doctrine which he taught; by his death, by which he purchased this heavenly inheritance for the elect; by his holy life and conversation, setting us an example that we should follow in his steps; and by the influence of his Spirit, whereby believers are sanctified, and made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.'

Alexandra Cruden is entitled to his opinion. His opinion is just that and carries no more weight than what you and I would have to say IMHO.

How can numerous contradictions between holy scriptures be anything other than an irreconcilable difference?

There is a clear agenda from both Christains and Muslims to promote the idea that the Quran and Bible can not be reconciled. Christians because they believe Islam to be a religion that isn't Divinely inspired as they believe Judaism and Christainity to be. Muslims believe the Gospels and Torah to be corrupted so they too look for and exagerate differences.

For example, in the Bible it says that Abraham took Isaac to Mount Moriah to offer him as a burnt offering [Genesis 22]. In the Qur'an [Surah 37?], Abraham is said to have taken Ishmael to be sacrificed.

There is debate amongst Muslims as to who was sacrificed according to the Quranic Sura 37 and it is generally thought to be Ishmael rather than Isaac. Tell me, what is the historic evidence that either Isaac or Ishmael actually existed let alone any of the events in the Torah or Quran actually happened? There is no evidence of course. That doesn't not mean they were not real people but from history we can't resolve the difference. Neither the Torah or Quran are history books, instead religious texts to inspire and guide. So the value in the stories are in what they tell us about our spiritual purpose of life. The sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis has a clear message as does the sacrifice of Ishmael in the Quran. Ishmael of course was banished from his homeland on account of Abraham's first wife Sarah, so that too was a sacrifice.

Most importantly of all, the centrality of the Suffering Servant is reduced to a side-note in the Qur'an. The crucifixion (and resurrection) of Jesus is not accepted by the majority of Muslims, and all claims to divine Sonship [along with the trinity] are rejected. This means that there is no baptism in the Holy Spirit, and therefore no spiritual body, or Church.

Christainity had already become derailed and corrupted when Muhammad came on the scene. There are comments in the Quran that correect theological misunderstandings that existed within Christendom.

Key theological differences are:

1/ The nature of salvation
2/ The Trinity
3/ The Divinity of Christ
4/ The Sonship of Christ
5/ The resurrection

I've already addressed the crucifixion.

In regards suffering and sacrifice, both Muhammad and Jesus suffered and made great sacrifices. The spiritual function of Baptism is achieved through prayer and fasting and living the life in Islam. The Holy Spirit is an important concept in Islam as it is Christianity. Muslimns gather and worship in Mosques.

So, according to the Qur'an, true Christianity doesn't exist!

The Quran doesn't say that at all. Christianity and Islam both clearly exist. Both religions are founded on Prophets through Whom God as revealed himself. Christianity makes the error of denying an important Prophet as the Jews denied Christ. Muslims make the mistake of discarding what was Revealed through Moses and Christ believing the Torah and Gospel They brought to be corrupted and superceded by the Quran.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Christainity had already become derailed and corrupted when Muhammad came on the scene. There are comments in the Quran that correect theological misunderstandings that existed within Christendom.

Key theological differences are:

1/ The nature of salvation
2/ The Trinity
3/ The Divinity of Christ
4/ The Sonship of Christ
5/ The resurrection

I've already addressed the crucifixion.

In regards suffering and sacrifice, both Muhammad and Jesus suffered and made great sacrifices. The spiritual function of Baptism is achieved through prayer and fasting and living the life in Islam. The Holy Spirit is an important concept in Islam as it is Christianity. Muslimns gather and worship in Mosques.

Christ warned his followers that tares would grow up amongst the wheat, but that they should be allowed to grow together until the harvest [Matthew 13:24-30].

Jesus was, according to scripture, the mediator of the New Testament. It is only after his death, resurrection and ascension that the Holy Spirit becomes available. It is through baptism in the Holy Spirit that the Church, or body of Christ, is formed.

What part could Muhammad possibly have played in this divine plan? The teaching of Muhammad is not a gospel of grace, but a call to follow law. Law existed before Christ, therefore Muhammad must have been calling for a return to old covenant ways!

Whichever way you look at it, there is no hiding the fact that the Bible and Qur'an are irreconcilable.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Christ warned his followers that tares would grow up amongst the wheat, but that they should be allowed to grow together until the harvest [Matthew 13:24-30].

Jesus was, according to scripture, the mediator of the New Testament. It is only after his death, resurrection and ascension that the Holy Spirit becomes available. It is through baptism in the Holy Spirit that the Church, or body of Christ, is formed.

What part could Muhammad possibly have played in this divine plan? The teaching of Muhammad is not a gospel of grace, but a call to follow law. Law existed before Christ, therefore Muhammad must have been calling for a return to old covenant ways!

Whichever way you look at it, there is no hiding the fact that the Bible and Qur'an are irreconcilable.

It is your belief the Bible and the Quran are irreconcilable whereas its my belief they are not. It really depends on where we look. If we want to find common ground we will look towards similarities. If we want to promote division we look at differences.

Like it or not Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Its numbers are set to overtake Christianity as the religion with the largest numbers of adherents within 50 years.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

So Islam is undeniably part of God’s plan just as Christianity is. Imagining your own religion to be the sole repository of truth and salvation may feel comforting for a while. Only the truth can set us free (John 8:32).

 

[Muffled]

Which generation do you think Jesus is referring to?

I believe I have seen the sign and that it is the generation of my daughter.

 

[Muffled]

I believe God only ever called literary prophets from his own Chosen nation, Israel. Since Muhammad claimed to have descended from the line of Ishmael, not Isaac, this would place him outside the realm of acceptability as a prophet.
The Qur'an was composed over a period of 23 years, and by one man. The Bible took over 1500 years to complete, and has more than 40 writers claiming authority from God. Which of these two books would appear to have the greatest credibility as the Word of God?
I often hear it said by Muslims that the Bible has been corrupted by man, but the Bible has incredibly strong internal cohesiveness. This strengthens the view that the Qur'an must be at fault where differences exist between the two books.
The differences also appear to be insurmountable, especially given that the crucifixion of Jesus is denied, and with it the doctrine of salvation from sin.
What do you think?

I believe God can call a prophet from whatever nation He wishes.

I believe the fault does not lie in the texts but with those interpreting them.

I believe the Holy Spirit overcame those difficulties for me.

I believe that is not so. Context is everything.

I believe that is the Gospel which the Qu'ran does not explain. It is up to Christians to explain it to the Muslims.

 

[Muffled]

a lot of people have this israelite/jew fetish. i used to feel the same way. the bible tells the story of the failure of the israelites to uphold the law and honor the covenant. they left the the temple to fall into ruin while they amused themselves in pagan temples which they were strictly forbidden to do by God. blessings for obedience and curses for failing to do so.

I believe people who do not honor God's covenants are asking for trouble from Him.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe I have seen the sign and that it is the generation of my daughter.

What was the sign?

The passage in Matthew 24:34 says, 'Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.' 'This generation', if taken to mean a particular generation of people, would most likely have referred to a generation living at the time of Christ.

Much more likely, and in accordance with scripture interpreting scripture, is the link with Matthew 1:1. 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.' Unlike Genesis 5:1, where the generations of Adam are plural and temporal, Matthew shows us that the generation of Jesus Christ is singular and eternal.

This would give new meaning to Matthew 24:34. It would now mean that the Body of Christ, the 'generation' of Christ, would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled. Of course, it might still be true that your daughter will be alive to experience the rapture at the Lord's return!

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe God can call a prophet from whatever nation He wishes.

I believe the fault does not lie in the texts but with those interpreting them.

I believe the Holy Spirit overcame those difficulties for me.

I believe that is not so. Context is everything.

I believe that is the Gospel which the Qu'ran does not explain. It is up to Christians to explain it to the Muslims.

I believe God can call a prophet from whatever nation He wishes.

I have no doubt God can call anyone He wants! But the point being made here is that the prophets he chose to receive and record ['literary' prophets] his message were, I believe, chosen from the house of Israel.

I believe the fault does not lie in the texts but with those interpreting them.

Are you saying that you think the Qur'an is compatible with the Bible?

I believe that is the Gospel which the Qu'ran does not explain. It is up to Christians to explain it to the Muslims.

How can the Qur'an be compatible with the Bible if it doesn't explain the Gospel?

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is your belief the Bible and the Quran are irreconcilable whereas its my belief they are not. It really depends on where we look. If we want to find common ground we will look towards similarities. If we want to promote division we look at differences.

Like it or not Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Its numbers are set to overtake Christianity as the religion with the largest numbers of adherents within 50 years.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

So Islam is undeniably part of God’s plan just as Christianity is. Imagining your own religion to be the sole repository of truth and salvation may feel comforting for a while. Only the truth can set us free (John 8:32).

Christ is not a religion. A religion is defined by law, but a born-again Christian lives by grace. Love never was a religion.

In my opinion, it's not about whether or not we can find common ground. It's about whether or not truth can be compromised.

When you say that only the truth can set us free, I am in total agreement with you! It is therefore the responsibility of every individual to seek the truth with diligence!

Jesus Christ claimed to be the truth [John 14:6], but he also said very clearly that His way was a narrow way [Matthew 7:14]. He also said that his coming would not bring peace but division [Luke 12:51-53].

 

[Muffled]

What was the sign?

The passage in Matthew 24:34 says, 'Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.' 'This generation', if taken to mean a particular generation of people, would most likely have referred to a generation living at the time of Christ.

Much more likely, and in accordance with scripture interpreting scripture, is the link with Matthew 1:1. 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.' Unlike Genesis 5:1, where the generations of Adam are plural and temporal, Matthew shows us that the generation of Jesus Christ is singular and eternal.

This would give new meaning to Matthew 24:34. It would now mean that the Body of Christ, the 'generation' of Christ, would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled. Of course, it might still be true that your daughter will be alive to experience the rapture at the Lord's return!

This: Mat. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, However that happens quite often so it helps to have other things as well. A comet came and made perihelion on Dec 25th the same day that there was a solar eclipse.