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Featured I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by adrian009, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is not what the verse says. It does not say it was made for the righteous but that righteousness dwells in it.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that does not answer the question of Mat 24:3 "...what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No problem, It is an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are correct I do not believe as you do that God creating a new heavens and a new earth is symbolic at all. The reason is that other scriptures such as 2 Peter 3 sheds more light and understanding as to how God makes the new heavens and a new earth which IMO proves that this is not sybolic but a literal new heavens and a new earth. I believe the scriptures show that God will make the new heavens and new earth literally as outlined in Isaiah 65:17-19; Isaiah 66:22-23; 2 Peter 3:13; and Revelation 21:1 etc.

    Let's have a look at what God's Word says in relation to how the new heavens and the new earth will be made that proves that this is a literal event and not symbolic (IMO).

    2 PETER 3:3-13
    [3], KNOWING THIS FIRST, THAT THERE SHALL COME IN THE LAST DAYS SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts,
    [4], And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    [5], FOR THIS THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF, THAT BY THE WORD OF GOD THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD, AND THE EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER:
    [6], WHEREBY THE WORLD (G2889 inhabitants) THAT THEN WAS, BEING OVERFLOWED WITH WATER, PERISHED (G622 literally destroy and die)
    [7], BUT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, WHICH ARE NOW, BY THE SAME WORD ARE KEPT IN STORE, RESERVED TO FIRE AGAINST THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND PERDITION OF UNGODLY MEN.
    [8], But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    [9], THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, AS SOME MEN COUNT SLACKNESS; BUT IS LONG-SUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD , PERISH (G622 literally destroy and die), BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.
    [10], BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT; IN THE WHICH THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS (G3928 παρέρχομαι persish) AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP.
    [11], SEEING THEN THAT ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE DISSOLVED (G3089 λύω;luō means destroyed), what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    [12], LOOKING FOR AND HASTENING TO THE COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, WHEREIN THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED (G3089 λύω;luō means destroyed), AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT
    [13], Nevertheless we, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWELLS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Looking at some of the Greek word meaning here makes it very clear that this is a literal event and not symbolic IMO. I have added some sections in red (my emphasis) to some of the Greek word definitions in the scriptures above FYI. For example, 2 Peter 3:10. ἥξει δὲ [ἡ] ἡμέρα κυρίου ὡς κλέπτης] ἥξει δέ stands first by way of emphasis, in contrast to what precedes and what comes after: “but come will the day of the Lord.” These words express the certainty of the coming of the day of judgment, and ὡς κλέπτης its unexpected suddenness; cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (Matthew 24:43): τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέρας, 2 Peter 3:12, shows that κυρίου is here also equivalent to Θεοῦ (not to Χριστοῦ; Schott). Also you will see the examples given before hand in 2 Peter 3:5-7 is in reference to the earth being destroyed by the flood and will be destroyed after the second coming again by fire.

    ἐν ᾗ [οἱ] οὐρανοὶ ῥοιζηδὸν παρελεύσονται] This relative clause states “the event of that day, which makes it essentially what it is” (Schott). ῥοιζηδὸν, ἅπ. λεγ., equivalent to μετὰ ῥοίζου, is best taken in the sense peculiar to the word: “with rushing swiftness” (Wiesinger, Schott, Hofmann; Pape, s.v.); Oecumenius understands it of the crackling of the destroying fire; de Wette, on the other hand, of the crash of the falling together. With παρελεύσονται, cf. Matthew 24:35; Matthew 5:18; Luke 16:17; Revelation 21:1. As to how the heavens shall pass away, see 2 Peter 3:12.

    How the heavens and the earth will pass away is explained in the v10 “the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth and the works therein will be burned up. How the heavens and earth will pass away is further explained in 2 Peter 3:12 “the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved (pass away) and the elements shall melt with fervent heat from fire. The passing away is by the fire which procedes it.

    I believe the scriptures above are clear as to what it means and how God will make “a new heaven and a new earth” and how the old heavens and earth will pass away. The old heavens and earth will pass away and will be destroyed by fire. The ungodly (those who practice sin and do not believe and follow God’s Word) will be destroyed. The new heavens and the new earth according to the scriptures are only for the righteous (those who do not practice sin and believe and follow God’s Word) and only those who practice rightouesness will dwell in the new heavens and the new earth *2 Peter 3:13.

    Finally you might also notice that 2 PETER 3 also comparing how the new earth is made to destroying the world with a flood and fire also links it directly to the "THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT" and "THE DAY OF THE LORD" *2 Peter 3:7-10. If you do a word study of the day of the Lord the scriptures link this to the "END OF THE WORLD" and the judgments of God. See also *Isaiah 2:12; Isaiah 13:4-6; Isaiah 13:9-11; Isaiah 24:21-22; Jeremiah 46:10; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Ezekiel 30:3-4; Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1-2; Joel 3:12-14; Zephaniah 3:8; Amos 5:18-20; Revelation 6:15-17

    This is why I believe that it is impossible the new heavens and the new earth references are symbolic. The scriptures show that this will be a literal event. God will make the new heavens and the new earth after destroying this one with fire as it was in the past by flood to put an end to ungodly men and women and it is why God is calling on all people everywhere to repent and believe his Word. He is not willing that anyone should perish *2 Peter 3:9.

    Hope this is helpful
     
    #63 3rdAngel, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It begins with Jesus Christ the firstborn from the dead. He is the "Chief cornerstone". The "sure foundation" of a new creation. The old creation is subject to death and decay. Thermo-dynamics. But because the new foundation will be built on the One who has died once and risen immortal forever then the new creation will also last forever.

    God said "Behold I make all things new"

    And this Jesus is the foundation of it. Consisting of better substance than what came before. Because what He is is eternal and tested and found to be true.

    This is the "rock" that you can dig down to. But you have to dig past the sand.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Which generation do you think Jesus is referring to?
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I believe God only ever called literary prophets from his own Chosen nation, Israel. Since Muhammad claimed to have descended from the line of Ishmael, not Isaac, this would place him outside the realm of acceptability as a prophet.
    The Qur'an was composed over a period of 23 years, and by one man. The Bible took over 1500 years to complete, and has more than 40 writers claiming authority from God. Which of these two books would appear to have the greatest credibility as the Word of God?
    I often hear it said by Muslims that the Bible has been corrupted by man, but the Bible has incredibly strong internal cohesiveness. This strengthens the view that the Qur'an must be at fault where differences exist between the two books.
    The differences also appear to be insurmountable, especially given that the crucifixion of Jesus is denied, and with it the doctrine of salvation from sin.
    What do you think?
     
    #66 Redemptionsong, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Where your argument falls down here I believe is that God's promise was given to Abraham and his decendence after the prophets that were before him. Out of Abraham came Jacob who's name was changed by God to "ISRAEL" meaning an over comer with God and man. It was his (Abrahams) decendence (Jacob and his sons) that made up the 12 tribes of ISRAEL (Jacob). All the prophets after this time I believe come directly out of ISRAEL. God's promise according to the scriptures was not to ISHMAEL according to the flesh who was sent away, but to ISAAC according to the Spirit *GENESIS 17:21; GALATIANS 4:28; ROMANS 9:6-7; GALATIANS 4:22-29.

    blessings :)
     
    #67 3rdAngel, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  8. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    a lot of people have this israelite/jew fetish. i used to feel the same way. the bible tells the story of the failure of the israelites to uphold the law and honor the covenant. they left the the temple to fall into ruin while they amused themselves in pagan temples which they were strictly forbidden to do by God. blessings for obedience and curses for failing to do so.
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The signs for the coming of the end of the age are exactly those as described by Christ during His final Sermon near the Mount of Olives.

    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Matthew 24:28-30

    The signs not only apply to the Return of Christ, but also the first advent of Christ.
     
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  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    This is stating "where the body is there the 'vultures gather'"; it is a long winged bird of prey, that hovers around dead bodies.

    Eagles only hunt live kill, thus it is referring to Ravenous Beings listed in Isaiah 34; which are to be removed by the Judgement Day Fire.

    Luke 17:20-37 makes a clearer timeline of what is stated:

    Luke 17:24 Christ returns on lightning in the sky (Internet); where Christ has been rejected by all (Luke 17:25).

    Christ's 2nd coming is revealed on the internet (Luke 17:30, Revelation 3:3)...Before the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:15-16).

    Judgement Day Fire comes from Betelgeuse on earth, where the Fire cleanses all that does iniquity in one Day (Isaiah 13:10, Amos 5:8, Zechariah 14:7, Revelation 20:9-10).

    If we look at the timeline, it is stated by all prophets globally, when all nations come against Jerusalem in this Final Battle, that is when the Fire comes from the sky; with Christ literally here before it.

    After there is a New Heaven, as our sun will be 7 times brighter, and our moon as the sun (Isaiah 30:26); so no demons can live here any more, and Orion will become the shape of a 7, instead of a Z.

    Take into account the 'House of God' (Betelgeuse) is coming here, and then the Enlightened Saints shall reign on earth; in other words Heaven is coming here, and Hell is to be removed (Revelation 20:14).

    The earth shall be recharged by proton energy, changing the carbon based life into something that doesn't break down (Isaiah 65:20); where things will change from how our current model of how earth functions.

    Now in the time to come veganism is only accepted, and alcoholism isn't tolerated (Isaiah 66:17, Matthew 24:38); if this is possible to do through religious dialogue (Word) being the Fire, is dependant on people questioning it, if not Fire is soon from Betelgeuse.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #70 wizanda, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  11. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    See now that I, I alone, am he,

    and there is no god besides me.

    It is I who bring both death and life,

    I who inflict wounds and heal them,

    and from my hand no one can deliver.a

    40For I raise my hand to the heavens

    and will say: As surely as I live forever,

    41When I sharpen my flashing sword,

    and my hand lays hold of judgment,

    With vengeance I will repay my foes

    and requite those who hate me.b

    42I will make my arrows drunk with blood,

    and my sword shall devour flesh—

    With the blood of the slain and the captured,

    from the long-haired heads of the enemy.

    43Exult with him, you heavens,

    bow to him, all you divine beings!

    For he will avenge the blood of his servants
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I have said this on another thread, but I believe that the unitarian position, which Muslims hold, makes salvation from sin impossible. Given that the new heaven and earth are meant to be a kingdom without sin, at peace with God, how can this be achieved without there first being a cleansing from sin?

    How do Muslims think sin will be expunged?
     
  13. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    sin is ended when the wicked are destroyed. wickedness is deliberate defiance and rebellion and the resolve to commit monstrously evil acts of blood ritual prompted by arrogant malice and contempt.
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus asked the following. 'And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.' [Luke 6:41,42]

    The message of the Bible is that we are all sinners, and all in need of God's salvation.

    The reason that wars against the infidel are bound to fail, is because those that judge themselves to be better than the infidel are, in truth, equally in need of God's salvation.

    Do you believe that you, Chris, are without sin?
     
  15. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    we are all sinners but we are not all devil worshipers
     
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  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It's quite possible that many more of us are devil worshipers than even realise! Did the devil not show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and offer to give these kingdoms to Jesus if he would worship him? [Matthew 4:8,9] I cannot believe that these kingdoms were only territorial. These kingdoms must have contained subjects.

    If it turns out that the Qur'an is not a true prophecy, then who is its author? As I said before, the Bible and the Qur'an are so far apart in their message that it begs the question.
     
  17. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    islam is christianity without the whole jesus, the son of god, died on the cross for our sins mumbojumbo. other than that the quran contains exactly the same people and principles of biblical pure abrahamic monotheism
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Without that 'died on the cross for our sins mumbojumbo' there is no salvation from sin and death!

    Would you stand confidently before God in judgment?
     
  19. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    so you think that washing yourself in someone's blood is going to confer some benefit on you? that's warped. you havent participated in any blood rituals have you?
     
  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I presume by firstborn you are referring to Colossians 1:15-21?

    I believe Jesus brought a new heaven and earth and the Returned Christ also brings a new heaven and earth. In that sense I agree Christ is the chief cornerstone and sure foundation.

    Jesus explains that heaven and earth will pass away but His Words will endure.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    Matthew 24:35

    So after two thousand years we are still discussing the Words of Jesus. We still have a record of what He taught through the Gospel accounts of His life and Teachings. Most of the traditions of the people at that time (the earth) as exemplified by Greco-Romans have passed away. Even many of the traditions of the Jewish people based on the Torah (heaven) have passed away. The destruction of the Jewish temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD being a key event. That does not mean the Words of God have passed away as recorded in the Torah. Simply traditions and practices based on the Torah that are no longer relevant to the current age have passed away.

    So the Teachings of Jesus are a sure foundation but when Christ comes to renew all things He brings new Teachings. So while the Teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels endures, some practices of the Christians based on the Gospels will also pass away as they are no longer relevant to the current age.
     
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