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Featured I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by adrian009, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I do not believe either the world or the heavens are removed. I believe "new" means different from the old and not minor differences because the new world is not recognizable as the old one. For instance no-one remembers what the world was like when all the continents were together. The scientists can only suggest what they think it looked like.
     
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  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I fail to see any reasonable logic in that. I believe earth and heavens are not people.
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isaiah 24:19-20 The earth is utterly broken. The earth is torn apart. The earth is shaken violently. (20) The earth will stagger like a drunken man, and will sway back and forth like a hammock. Its disobedience will be heavy on it, and it will fall and not rise again.

    Isaiah 54:9-10 “For this is like the waters of Noah to me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah will no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. (10) For the mountains may depart, and the hills be removed; but my loving kindness will not depart from you, and my covenant of peace will not be removed,” says Yahweh who has mercy on you.

    Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, that burns to the lowest Sheol,devours the earth with its increase, and sets the foundations of the mountains on fire.

    Revelation 6:13-14 The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind. (14) The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


    Etc.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    It is about God build a new place (final version of Heaven) only the angels and humans passing the Final Judgment can set foot on. At the same time it says that God has two jobs to do, to save humans and to make sure that those saved won't complain the past in eternity.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Adrian, Happy Birthday!
     
    #45 Redemptionsong, Dec 9, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Interesting to read your posts. I feel we share a lot in common, but tell me why you think the new heaven and earth begins with the return of Christ. I need some persuasion on this one!
     
  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    There are many who fail to see the use of figurative language in Scripture. When God commands the heavens and earth to hear Him do you suppose He's speaking to the literal sky and ground. Where's the "reasonable logic" in that?
     
  8. Mark La Buda

    Mark La Buda Member

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    In the Bible, “earth” does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: “Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.” We know that our planet-the terra firma and the vast oceans-cannot sing. People sing. Yes, Psalm 96:1 is referring to the people on the earth. If “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government so, to “earth.” represents a new society of people.


    This prophecy was dealing initially with the restoration of Israel from Babylonian exile. Upon the Israelites’ return to their homeland, they entered into a new system of things. In harmony with God’s purpose, this new governmental arrangement, or “new heavens,” directed and supervised the subject people.-2 Chronicles 36:23; Haggai 1:1, 14.

    Peter, however, shows that a future fulfillment was to be anticipated, on the basis of God’s promise. (2 Peter 3:13) Since God’s promise in this case relates to the presence of Christ Jesus, as shown at verse 4, the “new heavens and a new earth” must relate to God’s Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects. By his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand, Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship…not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”-Ephesians 1:19-21; Matthew 28:18.


    John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Revelation 21:1; compare Isaiah 57:20; Revelation 20:11.) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Matthew 4:8, 9; John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; Revelation 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Ephesians 6:12) So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the “former heaven having passed away,” John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.”-Revelation 19:19-20:3.

    As for the new earth, following the pattern of the ancient fulfillment, the new earth will be made up of people-from all nationalities, languages, and races-who gladly submit to the rulership of the new heavenly government. After the passing of the present wicked system of things, this group will form the nucleus of a new earth that will eventually be a globe-encircling society of God-fearing humans who inherit the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom.-Matthew 25:34.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hi Mark, you say that the new heavens and earth 'must relate to God's Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects'.

    When do you think this complete obedience begins? Is it on the return of Christ? Or, is it following the millennial reign of Christ on Earth? [Revelation 20]
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that confirms what I said.
     
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  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    He has left earth so the place is somewhere else right now: John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

    I believe that is incorrect. Heaven has always existed and always will. The rooms in the hose that Jesus is building are not in Heaven and are not Heaven.

    I believe this is also not true because the final judgment does not occur until 1,000 years after we inhabit it.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming

    I believe that is the verse that says it.
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    When do you see the thousand years of Revelation 20 occurring? Does the millennial reign occur before the events of Matthew 24, or after them?
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe they occur after.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    So, you believe that the seventh day, God's day of rest, begins with the return of Christ and extends to a thousand year reign on earth. I agree. This seventh day is also the millennium referred to in Revelation 20.

    However, 'a new heaven and a new earth' only appears after the millennium has ended. In Revelation 20:13, towards the end of the millennium [see verse 5], the 'sea gave up the dead which were in it'. In the new heaven and earth, there is no sea [Rev 21:1]. You could say, therefore, that the new heaven and earth comes into being on the first day of a new week - as a parallel to the resurrection of Christ.
     
  16. chris baron

    chris baron Member

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    A NEW CREATION

    Seest thou not that Allah created the heavens and the earth in Truth? If He so will, He can remove you and put (in your place) a new creation? (Surah İbrahim, 19)

    They say: "What! when we are reduced to bones and dust, should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation?" (Surah Al-Isra’, 49)

    That is their recompense, because they rejected Our signs, and said, "When we are reduced to bones and broken dust, should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation?" (Surah Al-Isra’, 98)

    The Unbelievers say (in ridicule): "Shall we point out to you a man that will tell you, when ye are all scattered to pieces in disintegration, that ye shall (then be raised) in a new creation? (Surah Saba’, 7)

    If He so pleased, He could blot you out and bring in a new creation. (Surah Fatir, 16)

    Were We then weary with the first Creation, that they should be in confused doubt about a new creation? (Surah Qaf, 15)
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hello, Chris. When did you become a Muslim, and what led you to believe that the prophecy of Muhammad was true? As a Christian, I cannot hold to the truth of the Quran, as in many ways it contradicts what is said in the Bible.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the topic. I found it interesting and wanted to know more about it so prayterfully did a bit of reading today and found some interesting scriptures I thought I would share. The scripture in ISAIAH 65:17 with surrounding context says..

    NEW HEAVENS, NEW EARTH AND A NEW JERUSALEM IN THE SCRIPTURES

    ISAIAH 65:17-19,
    [17] FOR, BEHOLD, I CREATE NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH: AND THE FORMER SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED, NOR COME INTO MIND.[18] But be you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, BEHOLD, I CREATE JERUSALEM a rejoicing, and her people a joy.[19], AND I WILL REJOICE IN JERUSALEM, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

    Keep in mind there are no chapters in the scriptures here in ISAIAH, it is similarly repeated not long after in ISAIAH 66 here

    ISAIAH 66:22-23,
    [22], FOR AS THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, WHICH I WILL MAKE, SHALL REMAIN BEFORE ME, SAID THE LORD, SO SHALL YOUR SEED AND YOUR NAME REMAIN. [23], And it shall come to pass, THAT FROM ONE NEW MOON TO ANOTHER, AND FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

    The new testament scriptures speak of the new heavens and earth here being made for rightoeusness or the righteouss...

    2 PETER 3:13
    [13], Nevertheless WE, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWELLS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Jesus spoke of the renewal of all things - the time when all things are made new.

    MATTHEW 19:28
    Jesus said to them, I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, AT THE RENEWAL OF ALL THINGS, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

    Same thing is mentioned in ACTS..

    ACTS 3:21
    Who [Christ] must remain in heaven UNTIL THE TIME OF UNIVERSAL RESTORATION THAT GOD ANNOUNCED LONG AGO THROUGH HIS HOLY PROPHETS (reference back to to ISAIAH 65 and ISAIAH 66)

    As can be seen in the scriptures here IMO we are talking about God creating a new heaven and a new earth that will take place after the 2nd coming. Interestingly in the book of REVELATION we read this also about the “NEW JERUSALEM that God will create as referenced from ISAIAH 65:18 here

    REVELATION 3:12
    HIM THAT OVERCOMES will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and i will write on him the name of my god, and the name of the city of my god, which is NEW JERUSALEM, WHICH COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM MY GOD: and I will write on him my new name.

    Repeated here…

    REVELATION 21:1
    [1], And I SAW A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: FOR THE FIRST HEAVEN AND THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.

    REVELATION 21:12
    AND I JOHN SAW THE HOLY CITY, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Letting the scriptures speak for themselves I believe they are saying exactly what they are saying. God will create a new heaven and a new earth for God’s people after his second coming IMO.

    Thanks for the topic. I enjoyed it :)
     
    #58 3rdAngel, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Thanks for sharing other scriptures the relate to a new heaven and earth. Those verses do shed light on what Isaiah meant. I agree a new heaven and earth take place after the second coming of Christ. Where we may not agree is that a new heaven and earth were signs that accompanied Christ’s first advent. Through His Teachings a new measure of God’s Grace was Revealed to humanity. So heaven denote those things of God with the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) that.changed the lives and conditions of people through the establishment of a new social order with the Christian Church, representing a new earth.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe your problem is that you think the chapters are serial and that the events of ch 21 occur after the events of ch 20. I do not see it that way. Mat. 24 shows that it isn't a millenia until the end of the world but a generation.
     
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