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Featured I can not see it, so it does not exist

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Amanaki, Aug 10, 2020.

  1. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    The statement in the headline is not from me :)
    But I got me thinking, does a thing, a being, a place not exist just because we can not see it?

    Some examples.

    God can not exist, I have never seen him/her/ it
    Ghosts does not exist, I never seen proof of them ( that I accept)
    Spiritual beings can not exist, science has not proven it.


    Amanaki asks : Do I not exist because you have not seen me?
     
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  2. Gargovic Malkav

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    I worship and believe in the One I see as the Source of Everything as a result of experience and faith. Label me as you see fit.
    Sometimes I see things with my eyes that turn out to be illusions.
    Sometimes I see things with my mind that causes me to make sense of something.
     
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  3. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Well do you think the people who don't know you exist can say that they know you exist? That doesn't make much sense. Could the people who don't know yo exist believe that you do once they are told by the people who know you exist that you, indeed, exist? Considering your existence isn't exactly exceptional nor unexpected their belief would be reasonnable. Now if they claimed that not only you existed by that you 7 PhD from prestigious university and are married to a supermodel, they might be more suspicious since these are more serious and incredible claims. They might still believe you exist, but doubt that those latest details about your person are true.
     
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  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    The joke is, that it is apparently correct, that it does not exist, but you can't see, that it doesn't exist, so that itself doesn't exist.
    It is the self-refuting joke of naive empiricism and only that which can be seen is real, because you can't see real. :D
     
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  5. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    A person in America who has never heard of me would probably say I don't exist.
    But maybe a better answer would be " I do not know if Amanaki exist" or if the person was curious, the answer would be. " I don't know Amanaki, but how can I learn more about him"

    To use my self as an example is not the best idea, but if you took the question
    "Does God exist" an answer could be, I do not know, but I would like to find the answer. In stead of just say " NO, God can not exist, there is no evidence"

    But my question become, did the person do any research in to it, or only rely on "scientific proof of God does not exist"
    Note: I do not bash non believers in this tread. I trying find answer to how someone can refute so hard that something they have not seen, or gotten proof of can not exist.
     
  6. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    Sound like you see that something can exist, even not always understand it, and sometimes when you use your physical eyes you see "a wrong" sight :)
     
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  7. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    If I do not look in a mirror, or down at my body. But instead close my eyes and stop feeling my existence, do I disappear from my self :confused:
     
  8. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    No, things do not cease to exist because you cannot see them.
    Sight is just of the avenues of evidence you should use.

    I have never seen Australia, do I believe it exists, yes, because I have seen pictures of it, I have met people from there, I believe them. So, I weigh up the evidence and I believe it exists.
    I could do the same for atoms. I've never seen one, but people who I trust, much cleverer than me say they exist, I believe them.
    I believe someone who on this board goes by the name Amanaki exist, I've never seen them, it is probably not their real name, but someone is there making the posts.
     
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  9. Gargovic Malkav

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    In my experience, when people start to overanalyze things, things tend to become rather confusing and meaningless. When I overanalyze my own name and repeat it many times, it's as if my name is "weird".
     
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  10. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Well to take your example, a person who doesn't know that God exist, but is curious would search evidence that there is a God. If they find no evidence where one would expect to find some that's evidence of abscence. In such a situation, there is evidence that God doesn't exist. Alternatively, they could find no evidence at all (either for or against the existence of God) and remain in the dark on this subject. A person in that situation can either keep on living as if there were none or live as if there were one with a certain set of characteristics.
     
    #10 epronovost, Aug 10, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  11. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    You know, I like your answer.
    You said something so important. You have people you trust, to tell you the truth, this is exactly how someone who follow a spiritual teaching could answer.
    " No I have not seen it yet my self, but my spiritual teacher give me an explanation I trust to be true, I trust my teacher"
    It is not always we can see it or understand it our self, but we have someone in our life that can explain to us in a way we understand :)

    PS: Amanaki is my true middle name :)
     
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  12. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    The question arise, just because we could not give a solid answer to if God exist, does it mean there is zero chance God does not exist. Or just that you were not able to prove it to your satisfaction of a proven answer?

    "Sorry if I am a pain in the behind" for asking all this questions. I am just born curioues
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Okay, down the rabbit hole we go! :D

    There is more than just this, but we are playing philosophy. In the record history of mankind nobody have solved the problem of there only being one type/category of evidence, truth, proof, fact, logic and what not including ontology.

    Now for "existence" the joke is that existence as existence doesn't exist, unless you believe in existence. How is that? Well, take a cat on a mat. That cat has properties, which you can describe. Existence as existence has no properties. It is in effect the cognitive result of treating the word "be" as it is something in itself; i.e. being qua being in itself. It is in the Western tradition a relic of ontology and you shouldn't do metaphysics and ontology other than as in effect a mind game.
    You can learn to not overdo thinking and think you can figure everything out in the correct manner.
    You can believe that you can figure figure everything out in the correct manner and I just do it differently and answer: No!

    These mind games have nothing to do with believers and non-believers as such. It is a result in practice of psychology and how people deal with negative result including that even logic has a limit.
    So a standard Westerner regardless of belief will sometimes claim that she/he can explain everything truth alone. Just answer: False!

    Yes, I am a skeptic and I can do refutations of all variants of "Everything is X" as a single category simply by answering non-X.

    So here it is my follow human. If it works for you to believe in God, then that is true for you. No matter all the other versions of truth. But it is not true for everybody else. As long as you can separate truth for you versus truth in general for the everyday world we share, you will do fine.
     
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  14. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, in some Buddhistic traditions that is the goal. But you don't have to go that route. Figure out what works for you as you and don't confuse that with the world as such.
     
  15. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    Hehe, I did that when I was a practicing Buddhist. And yes the body does feel like it disappear, and maybe it does. But I did not see my self disappear. My eyes was closed :p
     
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  16. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    That there is no evidence of God doesn't mean that there is zero chance God actually exist. In fact, without defining God precisely, it's ridiculous to even ask the question "does God exist". As an atheist I have encountered a lot of faithful people all with a variety of deities with all sorts of characteristics. If you tell me your father is your God. Can I tell you that our God doesn't exist? You can easily prove or disprove the existence of your father. In fact, your father must have existed at some point thus your God exist. Does that mean I believe your father deserved the title of God or that I will suddenly start worshiping your father because you proved his existence to me? Certainly not. I would still be an atheist even though your father, your God, definitely exists and I can't reasonnably deny it.

    On another note, depending on what you claim your God is or can do, it might be possible to "test" for its existence and come out with an answer, positive or negative, about the existence of such being. If you tell me your God is a magical blue djinn who invented the automobile and commanded the allied troops in WWII, we can easily show that there was no such magical blue djinn who did those things.
     
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  17. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    You're forgetting one, and I think it's a better answer.

    "I do not know, but I would like to find the answer, and until I find such evidence, I won't know and/or believe that God exist."

    The answer to your question from a lot of people would be, yes, research was done and no evidence was found.

    The problem here is that a lot of people will assume that those who do not agree with them have not researched and/or have the same knowledge as themselves. Another assumption would be that if someone would have done the research, they would have the same knowledge and come to the same conclusion. This can be for any topic, not just about god.
     
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  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    So epronovost, here we go!

    This is what I will take for granted about you as non-religious. You are a typical product of your sub-culture of non-religious Westerner.
    It mean in practice that you have a set of words, that you take for granted and don't doubt. In an everyday sense you have faith in practice as for this version of faith: Complete trust or confidence in someone or something. I am the same so it is not that we are different, but in practice you act with a psychological confidence in your experience, which you don't doubt because it works for you. The same for me.

    The difference is that I have learned to apply the doubt I use towards other humans' experience as in effect as the same doubt for myself.
    Now I have repeatedly been told by your sub-culture, that I must doubt everything using scientific skepticism. That is the game of your sub-culture, but the joke is that I took that to seriously and began doubting that. I learned to doubt scientific skepticism and learned to be another kind of skeptic.

    So I can doubt evidence, existence and the test you use and I have figured out, I can do it differently. That is the game we are playing now. You doubt with scientific skepticism in effect and I doubt that it works for everything as in practice the only way with evidence, existence and testing that we as humans can do it all the way to what everything really is as it exists.

    We are playing a game of metaphysics, ontology, logic, epistemology, ethics, politics, aesthetics and phenomenology rolled into one. And here it is for the end result. There is no single universal category for the likes of evidence, existence, test and so on. That includes religion, philosophy and science. We are in practice play a limited game of cognitive, moral and cultural relativism and that applies to us both. I just know it is so both for you and me.
    In practice you have faith just like all other humans.

    Regards and love
    Mikkel
     
  19. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    How subjective of you and that is without evidence or any of that jazz, because that is how you subjectively believe.
    You confirm this, because your claim fits this:
    Science has limits: A few things that science does not do
     
  20. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Sākṣī
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    No. There is evidence you exist because you post here (and at one time your face was your avatar).

    But your statement in the OP piques my curiosity. Why do you accept the existence of God and spiritual beings, but not ghosts?
     
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