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I Believe ...

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Absolutely! At which point I tend to resort to intuition. I have a lot of trust in my intuition. But that doesn't really help anyone else.
Yes. Truth is contextual because existence is relational. But still, we are a "we". And that "we" matters. So we seek a mutual understanding.

Well, yes. But that has a limited if there is not level playing ground. In saynur sing as a profession there is the notion of asymmetrical power relation. And it is not limited to just that. So sometimes the "we" is a we and them, because they are viewed as a negative, that they are not. And that can even happen when we claim logic, reason, evidence and so on.
But yes, we are important. And "we" is also that.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yeah, and then I hit limited cognitive, moral and cultural relativism. And when I try to resort that I get the following result:
Based on you, you are correct in your thinking. Yet I can do it differently. And I have found no way of figure out, which one is the really objectively correct one.
There is no objective "best". "Best" is a subjective value determination. I am not seeking nor proposing any "best". I am only seeking clarity and accuracy in identifying the criteria. Belief is based on criteria, and I am not seeing the value of that criteria set as I am identifying it. That is the subject of this thread.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There is no objective "best". "Best" is a subjective value determination. I am not seeking nor proposing any "best". I am only seeking clarity and accuracy in identifying the criteria. Belief is based on criteria, and I am not seeing the value of that criteria set as I am identifying it. That is the subject of this thread.

There is no one set of criteria for all humans. And you don't see as see value. That is in you just as best.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Or perhaps a way of confusing ourselves and each other. A lot of our 'semantics' are intended to confuse and obfuscate rather than clarify. I'm not accusing anyone. It's just human nature.
Why all the confusion? Why not just be specific? Especially in relation to yourself? Why do you feel the need to say you "believe" in anything that you are not convinced it true? What is this "believing in" business doing for you?
I have never encountered anyone who was really confused about this. I think you are trying to confuse yourself in order to make some point.

What do I get out of it? Let me explain with an example. I believe that If I put a certain amount of ground coffee beans this part of my coffee maker, and put water into this other part, and push this button, I will get a delicious life sustaining beverage. That is what I get out of it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There is no one set of criteria for all humans. And you don't see as see value. That is in you just as best.
Logic is a criteria that many of us use much of the time. But it renders different results depending on the information set it's being applied to and the goal one is hoping to achieve. I am simply trying to identify and clarify that information set in the case of belief. And so far it is not showing itself, to me, to be especially logical (I.e., beneficial).
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I have never encountered anyone who was really confused about this. I think you are trying to confuse yourself in order to make some point.

What do I get out of it? Let me explain with an example. I believe that If I put a certain amount of ground coffee beans this part of my coffee maker, and put water into this other part, and push this button, I will get a delicious life sustaining beverage. That is what I get out of it.
Why do you need to 'believe' it, and then proclaim your belief in it to me, when by your own admitted experience, you already know it to be so? Why this deliberate lack of clarity? If you know something to be so then why not just say that you know it? What is this strange insistence on believing in it doing for you? Are you unsure of what you know? And so also need to believe in your knowing?

I don't understand.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Logic is a criteria that many of us use much of the time. But it renders different results depending on the information set it's being applied to and the goal one is hoping to achieve. I am simply trying to identify and clarify that information set in the case of belief. And so far it is not showing itself, to me, to be especially logical (I.e., beneficial).

Well, to me my core beliefs or as you would call it faith are beneficial to me.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Really? I don't think that's true. A child looks to find answers... then he believes.
He accepts the answers he's given, and the facts that he experiences, but does he "believe (in)" them? I ask questions and get answers all the time. And I accept those answers for as long as and to the degree that they function as answers. But that doesn't mean I believe they are the answer. That I am no longer skeptical or in doubt of their validity. And why would I? What advantage to me is there in my making that assessment?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Well, to me my core beliefs or as you would call it faith are beneficial to me.
Yes, faith is beneficial. Even essential. I just don't see any need for belief. Nor any advantage in it. It actually seems disadvantageous to me in that it eschews skepticism and doubt.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
He accepts the answers he's given, and the facts that he experiences, but does he "believe (in)" them? I ask questions and get answers all the time. And I accept those answers for as long as and to the degree that they function as answers. But that doesn't mean I believe they are the answer. That I am no longer skeptical or in doubt of their validity. And why would I? What advantage to me is there in my making that assessment?
Well, I would say if you can't stand for something you're going to fall for anything.

People like to say that they have an open mind like that's a good thing, but, there is such a thing as absolute truth.

Accepting everything or nothing seems like a terrible way to live.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Well, I would say if you can't stand for something you're going to fall for anything.
But we can "stand for" whatever we think is good and right without having to believe that we can't possibly be bad, or wrong. In fact, it seems to me that it's essential that we all understand that even when we think and hope (or believe) that we are doing what's good and right, we may in fact be doing quite the opposite. Many horrible things have been done by people that had the very best of intentions, and that believed heart and soul that they were doing the right thing. So it seems to me that skepticism is NOT something that we ought to be trying to eliminate in ourselves, especially about ourselves.
People like to say that they have an open mind like that's a good thing, but, there is such a thing as absolute truth.
There may be, but we humans don't have the scope to determine that. We are very finite.
Accepting everything or nothing seems like a terrible way to live.
This isn't about what we accept. It's about what we believe. We can accept that all kinds of things are likely or probable without our having to believe that they will be so, without a doubt. Belief is about setting aside that doubt, and skepticism, and deciding to just go forward presuming that we are right.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Why do you need to 'believe' it, and then proclaim your belief in it to me, when by your own admitted experience, you already know it to be so? Why this deliberate lack of clarity? If you know something to be so then why not just say that you know it? What is this strange insistence on believing in it doing for you? Are you unsure of what you know? And so also need to believe in your knowing?

I don't understand.
First I don’t need to proclaim anything, to you or anyone else. If it comes up and conversation, of if someone asks me, I might, or I might not. Scepticism allows me to consider other possibilities and avoid rigid thinking. (I might even find a way to make a better cup of coffee).
 
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