And all that is remaining is how every other claim of the Bible has been vetted by your system of testing. I am not even sure what will be available as evidence for most of it you are going to have to test.
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"I believe in science, I don't believe in God"
- Thread starter BilliardsBall
- Start date
What puzzles me is why he hasn't already published. I thought he was academic with books he has published. I am not sure what would hold him back. Of course, now I see that he is in sales of some sort. So, I do not know what to believe.
Ah - so you're talking about confirmation bias.
I am wondering what an "excessively close correlation" is. Man that correlation was excessively. It nearly took off my head. Does it have to get so excessively close, it is creeping me out.
Something else occured to me:
Let's say this really happened the way you said. You're implying that God interfered with the free will of at least 6 people to cause a cutesy coincidence you could take as a sign.
Now... I can't recall: in the threads about the Problem of Evil, are you one of the people who has argued that God doesn't prevent murder/rape/etc. because he's preserving our free will?
Wow! Really interesting!
My mother related when I was a child that she was seeing a positive difference in our finances and attributed it to the family tithing. It may have been true about our families personal correlation. I would like to believe it was real. But I really don't know. And now you have thrown in this really great wrinkle to iron out. Excellent. I really would like to see what others have to say about this.
ecco
Veteran Member
Graceful acceptance of nature.
ecco
Veteran Member
His Omniscient god knew what the total of the six commissions would be.
His Omnipotent god whispered into his ear how much to tithe (the sum of the commissions).
See, no free will interference.
And this omnipotent god doesn't feel the need to whisper into the ear of a would-be murderer "put down the gun"?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I'm not in sales except as a hobbyist.
The statistical analysis was rather simple.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
What? You equated (conflated) gambling with "giving money away" and I said, "gambling has expected outcomes".
The logical expected outcome of tithing is to get nothing in return for that IS giving money away--the expected outcome is zero. Instead, tithers and givers constantly receive financial blessing--God exerting His will.
Is it?
Tithing can be thought of as the membership fee into a social club. Membership in that club confers certain benefits.
For instance, have you ever landed a sale because of your connections at church?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, eh?
I hate to break it to you, but non-Christians also occasionally get unexpected money, too.
If you think that there's a statistically significant difference between tithers and non-tithers in this regard, I'd be happy to see the data. You know what a chi-squared test is, right?
BTW: even for your sample size of one - i.e. you - you still haven't actually said that you net out better tithing than not... i.e. that this unexpected found money makes up more than 10% of your income.
I am not the one pretending that there is a causal relationship out of coincidence.
So simple you couldn't even find enough characters on the keyboard to describe it.
Amway?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I can help you.
What is the expected outcome for wealth gain for money given away?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How did you demonstrate the existence of god, and then how did you demonstrate this god was "exerting his will?" How does a god do that, exactly?
You continue to fail to show that any events that occur in your life regarding money are more than just coincidence. This is the same song and dance you went through when you were asked for all this evidence you were claiming for the flood.
I don't have time to catch the show anymore. What would be the point. It is all fluff with no filling.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
What we're debating, I think, is whether God intervenes outside natural law/known phenomena, and evidence for the same. An example can help you:
Soon after trusting Jesus for salvation, my dad and stepmom gave up a significant cash flow that was legal, but one they felt was inappropriate for born again Christians to pursue. Money got tight, and after their bills were paid one month, they discussed whether to tithe or buy (quite) needed groceries (they had young children also). They tithed, telling no one of their predicament (I would have sent them cash!) and then several shopping bags full of supermarket goods arrived a day or so later, because some believers felt led strongly to do so (aka God said "Go and bring food to X").
Examine this anecdote:
1) They told no one of their situation and didn't look poor outwardly, someone drove to their porch and unloaded groceries there anonymously
2) It's possible I'm lying, I affirm I'm not
3) It's possible my folks were lying, but I will not entertain that possibility, I know them and they had no reason to be dishonest
4) God NEVER leads born again Christians (in my humble experience) to post things like groceries at homes where the wealthy reside, who then send the groceries on to some charity
5) Before you say "coincidence!" have you considered the odds of such groceries arriving at another home or at my folks' home on thousands of different calendar days when they need was less urgent?
I've experienced stories like this frequently. God promises in the Bible that tithers will have their needs met and the generous will be rewarded generously (here or THERE in the next world).
For a recent example for me, as I wrote you this week, I'm a hobbyist (who deals on eBay and live auctions and etc.) and I try to be zero sum (sell to upgrade my collection rather than spending often). At one point I had a half-dozen sales offers to multiple folks--they had a list of items and prices from me (I have an eZine and a large collectors' list).
At a church event, I felt led to give a single four-figure gift to a cause, my spouse agreed, and we went for it--but cash flow was tight (we do more than tithe and I don't keep a lot of cash flow on hand).
The next day, thinking I had only reluctant buyers (some of these deals or e-mails sat ignored for weeks), multiple sales and offers came in, some of them redacting my offers. As I was ledgering the sales, I realized they totaled what we gave the day before, to the cent.
Examine this anecdote:
1) Before you say "coincidence", how many combinations of sales did I have waiting? And how many dollar figures would not have equaled what I earned?
2) This wasn't a self-fulfilling prophecy, the buyers came up with the buy offers on their own (some of them).
This type of anecdote is also a somewhat frequent occurrence in my life. And even a few iterations of the same (yes, I've received unexpected dollars before totaling a stretch give) would increase the odds astronomically
I will try to forego jumping to conclusions, but the returns God gives to Christians who pursue Him with generous giving. would lead me to conclude that if you continue to scoff, you've not given in Jesus's name, sacrificially, generously.
Do YOU tithe or make offerings to a church or synagogue? Have you not seen the unusual law of reciprocity (what comes around, goes around financially, even where the expected outcome is LOSS when a gift is awarded)?
Thank you.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
This is a good illustration of why anecdotes don’t constitute data.
So there was absolutely nobody in their lives who may have noticed they were in need, or overhead them or others talking about it? Everyone they knew was completely oblivious?
How did you determine that "believers felt led strongly to" leave the groceries because God said to them "Go and bring food to X?" You say here they were anonymous donors. How do you know they were even believers at all? How do you know that God told them anything at all? How do you have any idea whatsoever what their beliefs and motivations were, given that they were anonymous? It sounds like you’re creating this picture of them in your head based on your own assumptions and preconceived ideas.
It’s also possible that you’re just under a misapprehension. It’s also possible that you are exercising confirmation bias. It sounds to me like the latter.
How many times have needy people needed food and didn’t receive groceries on their front porch from anonymous donors supposedly sent by God? How about all the starving children in the world whose parents probably pray every single day for a bowl of rice, never mind a bunch of groceries, whose prayers are ignored and their children die from starvation? How did you include people such as these in your calculations?
This seems to me like a giant case of confirmation bias where you cherry pick the events that confirm your beliefs, while ignoring so many others that don’t confirm your beliefs.
This is your belief. A belief you haven’t demonstrated to be true.
That’s the thing about coincidences; they seem impossible and yet they happen all the time. Most of the time we don’t chalk them up to much, but sometimes, as in your case, we cherry pick the ones that stand out to us in some positive/confirmatory way, while ignoring those that don’t. I wonder how many people received groceries on their porch from others where you didn’t even know about them. How did you account for those ones?
But since you mention odds here, how did you calculate them, and what are they?
I’m not a Christian and not a tither. I once stumbled upon a $50 dollar bill sticking out of a sewer grate right at a time when I was really in need of money. How do you explain that?
How many combinations of sales did you have waiting? Did you calculate that, or just make an assumption?
How many dollar figures would not have equaled what you earned? Did you calculate that or just make an assumption?
What odds and how did you calculate them? Just because something seems unlikely to you, that doesn’t automatically mean that the odds are “astronomical.” There are equations and formulas used to calculate these things.
Where is the part where you demonstrably tie this to God(s) rather than just declare it?
My family used to tithe when I was a child. I actually used to love dropping the money into the plate when it came our way.
My family also experienced a lot of financial hardship for many years. The thing is, we never received bags of groceries on our porch from perfect strangers right when we needed it most. We didn’t accidentally manage to sell something on eBay in the exact dollar amount of our mortgage payment. Why is that? How did you include people like my family in your calculations?
Also, it sounds a bit like you’re saying that Christians are generous because they expect something to come back to them? Is that really generosity then?
So there was absolutely nobody in their lives who may have noticed they were in need, or overhead them or others talking about it? Everyone they knew was completely oblivious?
How did you determine that "believers felt led strongly to" leave the groceries because God said to them "Go and bring food to X?" You say here they were anonymous donors. How do you know they were even believers at all? How do you know that God told them anything at all? How do you have any idea whatsoever what their beliefs and motivations were, given that they were anonymous? It sounds like you’re creating this picture of them in your head based on your own assumptions and preconceived ideas.
It’s also possible that you’re just under a misapprehension. It’s also possible that you are exercising confirmation bias. It sounds to me like the latter.
How many times have needy people needed food and didn’t receive groceries on their front porch from anonymous donors supposedly sent by God? How about all the starving children in the world whose parents probably pray every single day for a bowl of rice, never mind a bunch of groceries, whose prayers are ignored and their children die from starvation? How did you include people such as these in your calculations?
This seems to me like a giant case of confirmation bias where you cherry pick the events that confirm your beliefs, while ignoring so many others that don’t confirm your beliefs.
This is your belief. A belief you haven’t demonstrated to be true.
That’s the thing about coincidences; they seem impossible and yet they happen all the time. Most of the time we don’t chalk them up to much, but sometimes, as in your case, we cherry pick the ones that stand out to us in some positive/confirmatory way, while ignoring those that don’t. I wonder how many people received groceries on their porch from others where you didn’t even know about them. How did you account for those ones?
But since you mention odds here, how did you calculate them, and what are they?
We all have. Life is made up of many such experiences. It’s how we interpret them that is important in this discussion.
I’m not a Christian and not a tither. I once stumbled upon a $50 dollar bill sticking out of a sewer grate right at a time when I was really in need of money. How do you explain that?
How many combinations of sales did you have waiting? Did you calculate that, or just make an assumption?
How many dollar figures would not have equaled what you earned? Did you calculate that or just make an assumption?
What odds and how did you calculate them? Just because something seems unlikely to you, that doesn’t automatically mean that the odds are “astronomical.” There are equations and formulas used to calculate these things.
Where is the part where you demonstrably tie this to God(s) rather than just declare it?
My family used to tithe when I was a child. I actually used to love dropping the money into the plate when it came our way.
My family also experienced a lot of financial hardship for many years. The thing is, we never received bags of groceries on our porch from perfect strangers right when we needed it most. We didn’t accidentally manage to sell something on eBay in the exact dollar amount of our mortgage payment. Why is that? How did you include people like my family in your calculations?
Also, it sounds a bit like you’re saying that Christians are generous because they expect something to come back to them? Is that really generosity then?
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What we are debating is your claim to have tested and validated the claims of the Bible. What I see is your belief that tithing has made you wealthy. You have not provided a valid test or shown that you have eliminated bias in coming to your conclusion. You have not established a link between your alleged success, tithing or the validity of biblical claims.
I see a reason why you believe, but that is not a test of biblical inerrancy.