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I am the first and the last - who is it, Jesus, or Allah?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
"He is the First and the Last and the Ascendant (over all) and the Knower of hidden things, and He is Cognizant of all things" Quran 57:3

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Bible Rev 22:14


Which one is true, Quran, the Bibe, or both?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
The Quran is true for Muslims.

The Bible is true for Christians.

If you're Baha'i, check the Baha'i Reference Library to see what Baha'u'llah has to say on the matter.

In the Baha'i quest for the unity of humanity, I see pitting Christians and Muslims against one another in such a debate to be counterproductive.

Why not just stay in your lane?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Do you have some Biblical reason to think that is about Jesus and not about God?
It is the one who says, He will come. So must be Jesus, no?
I thought thats what Christian interpreted it.


Pulpit Commentary:

Verse 8. - A prelude to the book. In the simple majesty of its solemn language it reminds us of the opening of St. John's Gospel and of his First Epistle. "I am the Alpha and the Omega" is here not followed by "the Beginning and the End," which the Vulgate and some other authorities insert from Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13. Who is "the Lord," that utters these words? Surely the Christ, as seems clear from ver. 17; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 22:13. To attribute them to the Father robs the words of their special appropriateness in this context, where they form a prelude to "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" as God and as the Almighty "Ruler of the kings of the earth." Yet the fact that similar language is also used of the Father (Revelation 6:6; Revelation 21:6) shows how clearly St. John teaches that Jesus Christ is "equal to the Father
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"He is the First and the Last and the Ascendant (over all) and the Knower of hidden things, and He is Cognizant of all things" Quran 57:3

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Bible Rev 22:14


Which one is true, Quran, the Bibe, or both?
Salam

In Ziyarat Auli-Yaseen it is said "You are the first and last", though usually seen as "you the first and last (I believe in all)" sort of meaning, I think the former is the proper translation. It maybe a hint to the star, moon, sun, and finally annihilation into the light, of the journey. That they are the start of the journey to God and the end of the journey to God. This is said in Ziyarat Jamia Al-Kabir, "with you does God begin, and with you does he seal".

This is true of all Ahlulbayts (a), they are the start, and end of the journey, because their followers remain attached to them and follow them through out time and they are what initialize them in the spiritual kingdom and they are the reality beyond Angels, and so they are the direction.

However, the line from Surah Hadid, most likely refers to something else entirely unrelated though similar words, it means God is before all things and after the annihilation of all things, and he is the manifest and the hidden.
 

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
Do you have some Biblical reason to think that is about Jesus and not about God?
I have explained that here many times , but probably you haven't seen it.

Transitivity , If a = b and b = c, then a = c

In Revelation 21 it says
He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.'
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.'.

So , we go to Revelation 22:6
'The angel said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.'

then
Revelation 22:12-16
'Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.'
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Salam

In Ziyarat Auli-Yaseen it is said "You are the first and last", though usually seen as "you the first and last (I believe in all)" sort of meaning, I think the former is the proper translation. It maybe a hint to the star, moon, sun, and finally annihilation into the light, of the journey. That they are the start of the journey to God and the end of the journey to God. This is said in Ziyarat Jamia Al-Kabir, "with you does God begin, and with you does he seal".

This is true of all Ahlulbayts (a), they are the start, and end of the journey, because their followers remain attached to them and follow them through out time and they are what initialize them in the spiritual kingdom and they are the reality beyond Angels, and so they are the direction.

However, the line from Surah Hadid, most likely refers to something else entirely unrelated though similar words, it means God is before all things and after the annihilation of all things, and he is the manifest and the hidden.
Salam,

If that is referring to Allah, why then the Bible refers to Christ as First and Last?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Sure, they are the start and finalization of the journey of believers.

It could be that, since Jesus coming, was the Start of the Dispensation of Injil, and End of Dispensation of Torah, He is the beginning and the End. Muhammad was the Start of Dispensation of the Quran, and Closer of Previous Dispensation. He is the first, who rises to establish the New Dispensation, and He is the one who announced the closing of previous Dispensation.

But, as God is really the One who who opens and closes every Dispensation, it is said He is the first and the last.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I have explained that here many times , but probably you haven't seen it.

Transitivity , If a = b and b = c, then a = c

In Revelation 21 it says
He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.'
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.'.

So , we go to Revelation 22:6
'The angel said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.'

then
Revelation 22:12-16
'Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.'
Thanks. I have to think this more. Bible tells there is only one true God, who is greater than Jesus. That is why I think it is wrong to interpret those to mean Jesus is the God.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

This means, if Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega and also God is called the Alpha and the Omega, then it could be that they both can be called that. I don't know why it could not be so, even if they are separate beings.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Verse 8. - A prelude to the book. In the simple majesty of its solemn language it reminds us of the opening of St. John's Gospel and of his First Epistle. "I am the Alpha and the Omega" is here not followed by "the Beginning and the End," which the Vulgate and some other authorities insert from Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13. Who is "the Lord," that utters these words? Surely the Christ, as seems clear from ver. 17; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 22:13. To attribute them to the Father robs the words of their special appropriateness in this context, where they form a prelude to "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" as God and as the Almighty "Ruler of the kings of the earth." Yet the fact that similar language is also used of the Father (Revelation 6:6; Revelation 21:6) shows how clearly St. John teaches that Jesus Christ is "equal to the Father
I am not sure is it Jesus or not. But I know that according to the Bible, there is only one true God who is greater than Jesus:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
 

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
Thanks. I have to think this more. Bible tells there is only one true God, who is greater than Jesus. That is why I think it is wrong to interpret those to mean Jesus is the God.
Using logic to figure out who is speaking is not wrong at all.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
This does not say that Jesus is not God.

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5
Read carefully Malachi 3
"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,' says the Lord Almighty."

So when you state 'God is one' , what do you mean by it? Are you focused on one as a number , or you are focused on the oneness of God?

This means, if Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega and also God is called the Alpha and the Omega, then it could be that they both can be called that. I don't know why it could not be so, even if they are separate beings.

Isaiah 44:6-8 disagrees
'This is what the Lord says, the King of Israel and its Redeemer—
the Lord of the Heavenly Armies is his name
'I am the first and I am the last,
and apart from me there is no God.'

Read Rev 22:6 , Rev 22:16 , Jesus is claiming that title.
 

Dimi95

Χριστός ἀνέστη
It could be that, since Jesus coming, was the Start of the Dispensation of Injil, and End of Dispensation of Torah, He is the beginning and the End. Muhammad was the Start of Dispensation of the Quran, and Closer of Previous Dispensation. He is the first, who rises to establish the New Dispensation, and He is the one who announced the closing of previous Dispensation.

But, as God is really the One who who opens and closes every Dispensation, it is said He is the first and the last.
There are 3 claims in Rev which are not connected with anything that @Link said

'First and Last'
'Alpha and Omega'
'Begining and End'

The focus here is the 'oneness' of God

This are serious claims

In the Quran it starts with 'He is...' so here the focus is on his claim , not on some start or finalization , that's just interpretations to fit the belief.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
"He is the First and the Last and the Ascendant (over all) and the Knower of hidden things, and He is Cognizant of all things" Quran 57:3

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Bible Rev 22:14


Which one is true, Quran, the Bibe, or both?
I believe it is both.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Quran is true for Muslims.

The Bible is true for Christians.


If you're Baha'i, check the Baha'i Reference Library to see what Baha'u'llah has to say on the matter.

In the Baha'i quest for the unity of humanity, I see pitting Christians and Muslims against one another in such a debate to be counterproductive.

Why not just stay in your lane?
Although that may be so, there are many things the books have in common.

I would take what Baha'u'llah says with a grain of salt and skepticism.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
This does not say that Jesus is not God.
It tells that there is only one true God, and that God has sent Jesus. Do you think that Jesus is that only true God and he send himself?
So when you state 'God is one' , what do you mean by it? Are you focused on one as a number , or you are focused on the oneness of God?
I state there is only one true God. It means, only one true God exists.
Isaiah 44:6-8 disagrees
'This is what the Lord says, the King of Israel and its Redeemer—
the Lord of the Heavenly Armies is his name
'I am the first and I am the last,
and apart from me there is no God.'
Read Rev 22:6 , Rev 22:16 , Jesus is claiming that title.
Sorry, I am not convinced that Jesus is claiming that title, and not even that it is a title that can be used only by God.
 
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