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Featured I am an Agnostic Atheist Theist

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by stvdv, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    25 sep 2018 stvdv
    I think the word "God" is a funny word in the sense that most of the people talk about it, while none can give a globally accepted definition, proving it's a subjective belief; no fact.

    I believe that "all names and forms" that humans attribute to God are illusory. Hence I can say I am an Atheist (deity does not exist) and an Agnostic (God is unknown)
    I believe that the Limitless, Attributeless Divine Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality, hence I can say I am a Theist (Theist as in "Divine Consciousness" NOT deities)

    Therefore I see myself as: 1)Agnostic + 2)Atheist + 3)Theist

    Some definitions to avoid too much confusion on this very confusing matter: Cosmic Consciousness:
    Conscience = Conscience is a Witness. It is also known as Awareness. A witness requires a basis to function (that of which you are “conscious” in the waking state)
    Conscious = Being Aware (The conscience is conscious when awake and not conscious when asleep)
    Consciousness = Limitless, Attributeless Divine Cosmic Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality. So unlike western definition (see spoiler for more information)
    Definition of Consciousness used in the WEST (this is 100% different from definition used in Indian spirituality). Not seeing the difference you will totally miss my point.
    Consciousness (west) is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.

    Definition of Consciousness used in the Indian spirituality (without this understanding you will misunderstand what I am saying in this OP)
    Cosmic Consciousness (east) has been said (for common people to understand) to be "Sat-Chit-Ananda" (Being Awareness Bliss). But Consciousness is ONE, to make it understandable words are used, but it is beyond words. That's why it's impossible to accurate describe Consciousness. It needs to be experienced in meditative state. Takes years of practice to fully understand this. Once understood you are enlightened, so makes sense to strive at least to understand this IMO.
    Consciousness is described as: a)"screen" on which the movie "world" is projected + b)"substratum" + c)"on which the world is superimposed". See link below for more info
    Sathya Sai Baba | Non-duality

    Practical example to experience this Consciousness, used by the yogis in India (in which divinity can be experienced more easily):
    All education today is a process of proceeding from ignorance to ignorance. If you seek to know where is the Atma, it is the Chaitanya (Consciousness) between one state of consciousness and another. This is not easily understandable by all. There is a state which is between waking and sleep. Few know what this state is. We seem to be in the waking state and then we close the eyes and fall asleep. Only the yogis have observed this phenomenon.
    That which is conscious between the waking and sleeping states is the Atmic principle. The waking state represents the Rajo guna. Sleep represents the Tamo guna. In between is the Satwa guna–that is the Atmic Consciousness. [Excerpt from Discourse at the ‘Summer Course ‘in Brindavan, on 29-5-1990.]

    Agnostic atheism is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.

    Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities

    Theism (my definition) the believe that the limitless, attributeless divine consciousness is our own atmic reality

    Edit: It's still a work in progress to define the undefinable in words
    I believe only Cosmic Consciousness exists and is real (as in never changing)
    Limitless, attributeless means it can't be put in words (words are used to describe the indescribable)
     
    #1 stvdv, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  2. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Most of this is identical to how I see it.
    But "atmic"? What does that mean?
    Tom
     
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  3. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    25 sep 2018 stvdv
    I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am not the senses, I am not the emotions. So these are not "my reality"
    Then arises the question "Who Am I"? What is my reality? I call that "atmic reality", beyond words
     
  4. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    You're free to label yourself however you see fit, but if you're seeking to quickly give people some idea of what your actual beliefs are, you sound more like a panentheist.
     
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Still working on defining the undefinable. But panentheist seems not to fit.
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What is atmic in relation to theism and definition of a deity?

    ...and, how does atmic similar to a deity in which it is not god/deity but part of theism a the same time?
     
    #6 Unveiled Artist, Sep 25, 2018
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It sounds like a (Buddhist) Dharma concept when there are no attachments left, its nonethingness. I was reading the definition of atmic, is it "energy reality"?

    Maybe your reality is energy. It doesnt need to be metaphysic language to describe the nature of self without the senses of attachment. Maybe, the label is in the action and experience (and prayer) rather than theological with a name, definition, and scripture.
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I can't call it energy. I rather call it consciousness (Indian definition), because it is limitless and attributeless. My mind likes to box "reality" too, but alas....
     
  9. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    I don't believe anything about anything, or at least I try not to. To put a name on how I'm currently thinking about God, it might be "anytheism." Ze/(s)he/they/it are anyone/anything they need to be, for whatever analogies we're using to work for us.
     
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  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The existence nor nature of God nor consciousness are likely definable, but in human view beliefs have an understandable definitions within reason. Regardless of how you eventually define your belief from what you expressed your neither an atheist, agnostic nor theist.
     
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  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    When you say you are theist, are you seeing consciousness as a deity?
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Your describing consciousness as not having 'attributes' which I believe in the (Indian definition?) the ultimate consciousness does have attributes but not definable in a limited way from the human perspective. One problem with Indian definition(?), is that there is not one Indian definition(?) for the Source some call God(s) nor consciousness. One attribute attributed to the Brahman (God or Consciousness) is the Creator. In India the worchip of Brahman or Brahmin is attributes reflected in many forms

    Theism would be that the Source, some call God(s) have a relationship and attributes in a relationship with Creation and humanity. Considering the diversity of views in Hinduism the concept of a personal relationship to the Brahman, or Brahmin (represent different attributes of the Brahman?) is variable. Theism in some forms of Hinduism would be Theism worshiping the undefinable Brahman as a Deity.

    The view of the Baha'i Faith is Theism (close to panentheism) view that the Source, some call God(s) or Consciousness, which is undefinable in any limited way from the human perspective. God is the Creator, and has a relationship to humanity through Revelation. Sometimes described as the apophatic view of God. Our physical and spiritual existence reflect the attributes of the Source.

    The Theism of Traditional Christianity considers some of the attributes and nature of God as known, or cataphatic.
     
    #12 shunyadragon, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  13. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I believe consciousness is limitless + attributeless, so it can't be a deity nor anything. And because it is limitless + attributeless I can/need not know/think about consciousness.
    I just do my practice, like Vipassana (being the Witness) and CIA(Constant Integrated Awareness). I do not feel I need to understand "consciousness". Just Be the Witness.

    But as I said, lot's of work to do for me. Especially "stop thinking". For me the key lies in Silent Witnessing.
     
  14. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    You lost me at "globally accepted definition." As far as I'm aware, there is no globally accepted definition of anything. That different humans and cultures have different maps of the territory proves they disagree with each other on how to describe the territory, not that there is no territory. :sweat:
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the feedback

    One definition would be handy, but on the other hand with so many views you stay sharp, looking at other viewpoints also
    And makes sense knowing that people have been bugged for millennia with this koan-like seemingly unsolvable problem

    I have been doing that practice most of the time. Good part of it is that I got affinity with spiritual life, and I do like the path of Bhakti (magical mystery tour).

    I do like "Panentheism". And I do like all the different views on RF. Makes sense to me. Consciousness is limitless, so makes sense there are so many views appearing

    This "apophatic" can be seen maybe as "neti neti" in Hinduism? (not this, not this). To me this aproach makes more sense than "cataphatic" because of "limitless" quality
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Of course there is territory. And they disagree having different definitions. So IMO that is why it is called subjective belief/faith and not scientific fact
    Maybe one belief has it right, maybe even none. For me it is good to realize the difference between belief and fact
    When I was young, I always wanted facts. I think it had to do with my own insecurity
     
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  17. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    hey Stvdv
    You said:
    "Makes sense to me. Consciousness is limitless...."
    Do you think that consciousness leaves a dead person ?
    Do you believe that it goes to some `heavenly` entity ?

    I think consciousness dies with the body of a dead person,
    and so does the cognizance. but as to the spirit,
    we're born with it, and I don't know where it goes.
    But I think it returns to Life's Stuff, sans heaven or hell.
    And eventually, returning to other people and the Cosmos.
    Is there a `heaven` beyond the Cosmos, we'll find out.
     
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  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Seems a bit contradictory. I don't see how you can be a theist and an atheist at the same time. The rationale you gave for why you're a theist only works if you consider "limitless, attributeless divine consciousness" to be a god... but if you do, then you're not an atheist.
     
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  19. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    26 sep 2018 stvdv Consciousness
    Hi 'mud,
    Thanks for the reply. Good points. There is a big confusion here. The term consciousness I use is from Indian spirituality (100% different from the western definition; see spoiler also)


    I updated the OP a little with below. I hope this clarifies it a bit.
    Conscience = Conscience is a Witness. It is also known as Awareness. A witness requires a basis to function (that of which you are “conscious” in the waking state)
    Conscious = Being Aware (The conscience is conscious when awake and not conscious when asleep)
    Consciousness = Limitless, Attributeless Divine Cosmic Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality. So unlike western definition (see spoiler for more information)

    Definition of Consciousness used in the WEST (this is 100% different from definition used in Indian spirituality). Not seeing the difference you will totally miss my point.
    Consciousness (west) is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.

    Definition of Consciousness used in the Indian spirituality (without this understanding you will misunderstand what I am saying in this OP)
    Cosmic Consciousness (east) has been said (for common people to understand) to be "Sat-Chit-Ananda" (Being Awareness Bliss). But Consciousness is ONE, to make it understandable words are used, but it is beyond words. That's why it's impossible to accurate describe Consciousness. It needs to be experienced in meditative state. Takes years of practice to fully understand this. Once understood you are enlightened, so makes sense to strive at least to understand this IMO.
    Consciousness is described as: a)"screen" on which the movie "world" is projected + b)"substratum" + c)"on which the world is superimposed". See link below for more info
    Sathya Sai Baba | Non-duality

    Practical example to experience this Consciousness, used by the yogis in India (in which divinity can be experienced more easily):
    All education today is a process of proceeding from ignorance to ignorance. If you seek to know where is the Atma, it is the Chaitanya (Consciousness) between one state of consciousness and another. This is not easily understandable by all. There is a state which is between waking and sleep. Few know what this state is. We seem to be in the waking state and then we close the eyes and fall asleep. Only the yogis have observed this phenomenon.
    That which is conscious between the waking and sleeping states is the Atmic principle. The waking state represents the Rajo guna. Sleep represents the Tamo guna. In between is the Satwa guna–that is the Atmic Consciousness. [Excerpt from Discourse at the ‘Summer Course ‘in Brindavan, on 29-5-1990.]

    Answers to your questions:
    1: "Does Consciousness leaves the dead body?" NO, Consciousness IS, it does not "come" nor "go" anywhere. (above info in spoiler (+links) clarify a bit more)
    2: "Do you believe that it goes to some `heavenly` entity ?" NO, as explained above. Even `heaven` does not exist in this picture, only Cosmic Consciousness.
    3: "I believe consciousness dies ... but as for the spirit". Aha. This shows the misunderstanding, due to different definition of "Consciousness" ... your "spirit" is closer to it.
    4: "We're born with it, and I don't know where it goes.". Until we are Self-Realized we don't know I think. Till then I accept Indian Scripture telling "not coming nor going"
    5: "But I think it returns to Life's Stuff, sans heaven or hell.". That's how I see it. Your "stuff" is my "Cosmic Consciousness". I had this feeling before. Don't you think?
    6: "And eventually, returning to other people and the Cosmos.". Something like that.
    7: "Is there a `heaven` beyond the Cosmos, we'll find out.". Yes, we'll find out. Till then I believe there is only "stuff" or what I call "Cosmic Consciousness"

    In Indian Scriptures, to explain this Cosmic Consciousness, many times they use the example of the "rope and the snake". In the dark the snake is superimposed on the rope, so people get scared because they imagine a snake where in reality there is only a rope. The same happens in our daily life. We forget that we are "stuff" or what I call "Cosmic Consciousness" and we get too much identified with our bodies, mind and especially our emotions, and this "wrong identification" creates all troubles like fear and anxiety. That is why the Indian Scriptures advice to let go "Attachment to the body, mind, emotions and the world", and pick up "Identification to stuff/Consciousness".

    Even your name 'mud is no coincidence I think. From dust/mud we come and we go (kind of analogy of Cosmic Consciousness/stuff).

    I hope this clarifies all misunderstanding

    Glory to Cosmic Consciousness (or call "stuff")
     
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    26 sep 2018 stvdv Consciousness
    Thank you @9-10ths_Penguin: Good observation. I noticed before but forgot about it. The "western" definition of Consciousness is totally different from the definition as given in the Indian Scriptures related to Advaita. I updated the "original post", and hope this clarifies at least the difference. To understand "Cosmic Consciousness" is very difficult, it's not just learning a dictionary definition, but we only know when we experience this. That is a slow process until full blown enlightenment. That, at least, is my understanding in the moment.

    I also clarified some answers @'mud gave (in the previous reply), which explains it more

    And to be clear, this Cosmic Consciousness as explained in the Indian Scriptures on Vedanta has nothing to do with Gods. There are also plenty of Gods in Hindu Scriptures, they are IMO used to get a feeling that there is more in the Universe than the obvious we see. Once we are intrigued by this, and willing to dive deep into Cosmic Consciousness the Gods, which were useful at some point, disappear and only Cosmic Consciousness remains.

    Thanks again, for bringing this to my attention.
     
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