I am a non-believer and have some questions

[Sonny]

You claim that Christianity and the Christian God being real is as obvious as the Earth being a sphere, but I am not seeing that. Take note that I have really kept an open mind to the skeptics and have really read into what they had to say. I have read into what the skeptics had to say about the things you have claimed to make the Christian God so obviously real that you would have to be a Flat Earth believer to not be convinced.

But I am just not seeing that. I am not seeing where I would have to be as dumb as someone who thinks the Earth is flat to not be convinced of the evidence you claim is undeniable for God's existence. I do not see how these skeptics are just as dumb as those people who think the Earth is flat. These are highly intelligent skeptics after all and I honestly and truly do not see that what you are claiming is true. I have done deep research and I just have to remain undecided.

What have the skeptics said that causes you concern? I've read some of them and find them easy to refute. Simply, get the facts. For ex. The Bible speaks of many things most of us will never know- bc we won't (not can't) do the research. But, Alexander, the 3rd (or, Great) is prophesied. He is not mentioned by name. God tells us 'that' something will happen but rarely 'when' or by who. But it is clear that the Bible is speaking of Alexander, the Great. In fact (bet'cha didn't know this), the Bible accurately predicts he would do what had never been done before. And roughly 250 years later it happened. These are the things that prove the Bible and its God is/are real. Most folks never study the fulfilled prophecies of the Bible. They either don't believe them or they do and see no need to research. But w/o research we divide into camps of, often, ignorance and feelings. Get the facts (do the personal research) and you will find the truth whether for or against your feelings or beliefs. At least you will know the truth.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I can't square it at all. But I know that God says He will judge each of us on what we do with what we know. And, since He put a knowledge of Him in all of us, kinda hard-wired it in our design, it is our responsibility to follow Him to the best of our ability and knowledge. Very few places in the world today have not heard about Christ. And, clearly, Christianity/Christians has actively sought ways to reach those who have not heard. But very few, if any, in America can say they haven't heard or can't find info about Jesus/Christianity. It is those folks (who have heard) that are at greatest risk of danger should they pass w/o accepting Him. God is just, fair and always right. He is not going to damn anyone for not knowing about Him. Well, God doesn't damn anyone ever. We decide where we will spend eternity. Folks don't like that bc they now have to be held accountable for everything they say and do and think. We are rebellious by nature, especially Americans, and don't want anyone 'telling us' anything. But God is love and only wants our very best. That makes serving Him worth it all.

I have two points I want to address. The first is on god judging us based on what we know. There was a famous quote by a Native American (actually Eskimo I think but I will look it up later) that was having a conversation with a Christian. To paraphrase he asked the Christian what would have happened if he had never heard of christianity. Would he still have gone to hell if he didn't believe? The Christian said no. So long as you were a good person the lack of knowledge wouldn't damn you. So then the native american asked why the hell he told him in the first place.

It seems that the knowledge of Christianity burderns you further in the eyes of god and seems like it would be counter productive to tell people about him.


The second point I will make with a question. You are given two options. Serve god or go to false gods or refuse to believe in gods at all. Which path do you take?

 

[Sonny]

All I have to say right now is just this. That is, it is all just your own personal opinion that the moral standards of the Christian God are all loving, all just, and morally righteous. They are not to me at all. If this God exists, then not only does he have to convince me he is real, but also that his moral standard is all loving, all just, and morally righteous.

Matt, it isn't personal opinion when there are facts. The issue seems to be you don't want to accept, or even acknowledge, those facts but demand God accept your view of what the world should be. What kind of God would do that- let his creation tell him what's-what? If the biblical story about Alexander, the Great (and many others) won't convince you to take a second, deeper look then nothing will. You, then, become someone arguing with a brick wall. You won't win that game. Facts, especially historical facts, are there to learn. It's getting people to look for them- put forth effort and time- that is hard.

 

[Sonny]

Monk of Reason,
No offense but...Neil Tyson? Really? I watched him 'almost' drop to his knees for Dawkins- in front of about 5-6 other scientists, an audience of, perhaps, hundreds and a TV audience of, possibly, millions. Since then I throw up in my mouth a bit every time a show with him on it. I won't watch those shows if that kook is on it- even if I like the topic. Dawkins is such a liar, tarnishes his otherwise intelligence, fraud and joke when he speaks against Christianity. He should stay with what he knows, Biology, not what he doesn't. But this is only my opinion.

 

[Sonny]

I have two points I want to address. The first is on god judging us based on what we know. There was a famous quote by a Native American (actually Eskimo I think but I will look it up later) that was having a conversation with a Christian. To paraphrase he asked the Christian what would have happened if he had never heard of christianity. Would he still have gone to hell if he didn't believe? The Christian said no. So long as you were a good person the lack of knowledge wouldn't damn you. So then the native american asked why the hell he told him in the first place.

First, one has to take the knowledge he has of God and live to the best of his ability for God. Christians tell people how to live right for God- we are all an example to someone. Knowing God's love for us helps us to be better at following Him. The lack of knowledge can damn a person- if they aren't serving Him. But if they are trying to serve God then knowing more about Him is desired.

It seems that the knowledge of Christianity burderns you further in the eyes of god and seems like it would be counter productive to tell people about him.

There is no burden in being a Christian. Even if I sin again- which I surely will- I know I am forgiven. But knowing Jesus makes me want to serve Him more. Knowing that God would become a man and die for my sins is profound and awesome. The whole point is to be the best Christian we can and help others to know Jesus and, often, we do that by living for Him out loud while professing His word publicly every chance we can. Serving the right God is more important than serving an unknown and unseen god.

The second point I will make with a question. You are given two options. Serve god or go to false gods or refuse to believe in gods at all. Which path do you take?

I research to learn which religion's god is God then I follow Him with all of my heart, or try to. Knowing what God has done, Created the amazing Universe (seen any pics from Hubble?), blessed us with a wonderful world full of good food and beautiful places and gave me the knowledge of Him. Why wouldn't someone follow a God like that? I can't understand why people don't try harder to learn who He is, or which one is the right one. There are a lot of gods out there but only one can be God.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

What have the skeptics said that causes you concern? I've read some of them and find them easy to refute. Simply, get the facts. For ex. The Bible speaks of many things most of us will never know- bc we won't (not can't) do the research. But, Alexander, the 3rd (or, Great) is prophesied. He is not mentioned by name. God tells us 'that' something will happen but rarely 'when' or by who. But it is clear that the Bible is speaking of Alexander, the Great. In fact (bet'cha didn't know this), the Bible accurately predicts he would do what had never been done before. And roughly 250 years later it happened. These are the things that prove the Bible and its God is/are real. Most folks never study the fulfilled prophecies of the Bible. They either don't believe them or they do and see no need to research. But w/o research we divide into camps of, often, ignorance and feelings. Get the facts (do the personal research) and you will find the truth whether for or against your feelings or beliefs. At least you will know the truth.

At this point, I have researched all I could and have grown tired and lost complete interest because I have a composing dream that I want to live for. That is my life's goal and dream. My life's goal and dream is not to waste my life searching for the truth that I probably will still remain undecided on anyway.

You might frown upon me for that, but doing so would be nonsense because it would be no different than a situation where there are dentists or painters who frown upon me for having no interest in pursuing their career. I simply have no interest in their career and they should understand that.

They should understand that I am my own individual wish his own interests, values, and moral standards. They should not then have me to go hell and never get me out over that. Same thing applies to this Christian God (if he is real).

Matt, it isn't personal opinion when there are facts. The issue seems to be you don't want to accept, or even acknowledge, those facts but demand God accept your view of what the world should be. What kind of God would do that- let his creation tell him what's-what? If the biblical story about Alexander, the Great (and many others) won't convince you to take a second, deeper look then nothing will. You, then, become someone arguing with a brick wall. You won't win that game. Facts, especially historical facts, are there to learn. It's getting people to look for them- put forth effort and time- that is hard.

If you read all my posts in this topic, then I justify how it would be an all loving, all just, and morally righteous God from my perspective who would let the creation dictate his/her own life as long as he/she is kind, isn't cruel, and doesn't harm and torture others. Really, this is what this whole topic was about. I have been giving my own personal arguments all long to support and uphold this.

I'm also already aware of what you've just mentioned regarding the Bible's claimed predictive power, but I still have to remain undecided. It has nothing to do with a lack of acceptance or anything else. It is instead based on an honest and genuine mindset as I've stated countless times before. Therefore, having a debate here regarding the validity of the claimed evidence is pointless.

But I can debate the moral nature of God which is what I have been doing here this entire time. At least my honest and genuine mindset has me actually disagreeing with the moral nature of God being all loving, all just, and morally righteous. At least I am not undecided on that issue. That issue is clearly obvious to me.

But when it comes to a highly intellectual debate regarding science and evidence (especially one that is ongoing between highly intelligent people), I just have to remain undecided here. But morality is something intrinsic in my life and I can clearly decide on this issue.

It is no different than a situation where I can already decide in my life whether it is right or wrong to harm my mother or brother. It would be clearly wrong for me to do so. But if you were to compare that to an ongoing debate of highly intellectual people regarding validity of claimed evidence, then that is something I have to remain undecided on. That is a different issue entirely.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

First, one has to take the knowledge he has of God and live to the best of his ability for God. Christians tell people how to live right for God- we are all an example to someone. Knowing God's love for us helps us to be better at following Him. The lack of knowledge can damn a person- if they aren't serving Him. But if they are trying to serve God then knowing more about Him is desired.



There is no burden in being a Christian. Even if I sin again- which I surely will- I know I am forgiven. But knowing Jesus makes me want to serve Him more. Knowing that God would become a man and die for my sins is profound and awesome. The whole point is to be the best Christian we can and help others to know Jesus and, often, we do that by living for Him out loud while professing His word publicly every chance we can. Serving the right God is more important than serving an unknown and unseen god.

What of people who live in countries where Christianity is known but is not the major religion? Why is it that they would not be saved but people who "just so happen to" be born in areas that are Christian have a higher chance of being saved?

I research to learn which religion's god is God then I follow Him with all of my heart, or try to. Knowing what God has done, Created the amazing Universe (seen any pics from Hubble?), blessed us with a wonderful world full of good food and beautiful places and gave me the knowledge of Him. Why wouldn't someone follow a God like that? I can't understand why people don't try harder to learn who He is, or which one is the right one. There are a lot of gods out there but only one can be God.

How did you determine which god was god? Did you put serious effort into Islam, HInduism or Buddhism? Did you ever considered that they are all wrong, Christianity included?

 

[Sonny]

In terms of the evidence, my decision has been final on that before I even had this debate. It is undecidable to me since I have an open mind the whole way through

An open mind accepts the facts, especially when they are both undeniable and irrefutable. But you have not. You may be a lot of things, Matt, but by your own words you are not open minded about the Christian God. None of us can produce God (which is what atheists and such often want when they ask us to prove there is a God) but we can provide proof of His existence. What you do with that will be known by all at the Great White Judgment. But no one is open-minded who ignores or refuses the facts.

 

[Sonny]

I hope I am answering your questions now here in this very post. I thought I did in my previous post, but I guess I didn't. So I will answer here by saying that other religious beliefs will also have their claimed miracles, evidence, etc. and it all seems very plausible, but that does not make any of it true. There are plenty of other things in this world that also has its claimed evidence and whatnot, but that does not make any of it true either. There are plenty of things in this world that sound and appear very plausible, but that does not make them so either.

That is why we investigate their claims 'personally' or trust those who do. The only way to know something is or isn't true, did or didn't occur is to research it. Have you researched the prophecy about Alexander, the Great? Did you even know it was in the Bible? You did say you had research stuff nearly ad infinitum. Do you know where that passage is?

 

[Sonny]

What of people who live in countries where Christianity is known but is not the major religion? Why is it that they would not be saved but people who "just so happen to" be born in areas that are Christian have a higher chance of being saved?

God looks at the heart. He knows who is and isn't following Him. Those who don't know of Him are no less saved then those who do, if they are doing their best to serve 'God'. One doesn't have to own/read a Bible to know there is a God or to serve Him, only to serve Him better and right.

How did you determine which god was god? Did you put serious effort into Islam, HInduism or Buddhism? Did you ever considered that they are all wrong, Christianity included?

yes, I have. My Koran has fallen apart from reading it. Don't go that direction! I don't think there is a god anywhere that demands torture, destruction and murder to prove he is God. That is not a god I would serve. Plus, Mohammad's prophecies are ludicrous. He 'split the moon in two halves'. What is that? The facts tell us if that happened earth would have felt the massive tidal changes and, possibly, our orbit would have been seriously affected.
I have wondered, especially lately, if Christianity was real, if God existed, if he cares for us, me. But I can't get past the evidence so I may doubt and question some things but I absolutely know Jesus is God. I don't doubt that at all.

 

[Sonny]

I am angry because I am open to those other Christians who would say that I would go to hell in my hopeless situation in which there is no way to convince me of God's existence.

You are angry bc you are open-minded? If you feel there is no God then what are you so angry about? Christians words don't affect the non-believer, just those who are convicted by their lifestyle choices.

I know that I am not fooling myself. I have tried my very best and have honestly looked at all the claimed evidence and I just have to remain undecided.

So, explain your view of the Alexander passage. If you've honestly done that much research then you should know that one by heart- it is one of the most spoken of prophecies in Christianity- at least in my circle.
I'll be waiting for your reply to this.

When you are undecided about a certain claim, it does not mean it is discarded. Rather, it just simply means that you are open to it as a possibility.

Uhhh, that is not what you've been saying. How can you be open-minded about something you have researched ad nauseum? It is impossible to know that much about something and be undecided. The evidence alone, or lack thereof, changes one's mind one way or the other.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

God looks at the heart. He knows who is and isn't following Him. Those who don't know of Him are no less saved then those who do, if they are doing their best to serve 'God'. One doesn't have to own/read a Bible to know there is a God or to serve Him, only to serve Him better and right.

If that is the case then what makes Christianity so special?

yes, I have. My Koran has fallen apart from reading it. Don't go that direction! I don't think there is a god anywhere that demands torture, destruction and murder to prove he is God. That is not a god I would serve. Plus, Mohammad's prophecies are ludicrous. He 'split the moon in two halves'. What is that? The facts tell us if that happened earth would have felt the massive tidal changes and, possibly, our orbit would have been seriously affected.
I have wondered, especially lately, if Christianity was real, if God existed, if he cares for us, me. But I can't get past the evidence so I may doubt and question some things but I absolutely know Jesus is God. I don't doubt that at all.

But not Buddhism or Hinduism?

What evidence have you found?

 

[Sonny]

First, if you think that Jesus "predicted electricity, TVs and satellites," then I have to tell you that you can only make that claim on the basis of wildly imaginative and inaccurate readings of what the Gospellers wrote about what Jesus said.

Jesus stated that when He comes again ALL people will see His return. That could only occur if He was looking forward, as none other could have, and saw our day. Why (how?) could someone in that day make such an astounding, and insane, statement if He didn't know what the future held? And, the fact that we have the capability (since CNN came online in the Gulf war) to see anything anywhere on earth proves Jesus was who He said He was and was God (could see the future from that day). You can't argue about this point. He said it and we have it. When He appears the whole world will see it...and fear for their lives/souls, if they don't know Him. Of course, no Christian will see Him in the sky bc we/they will be there with Him. His next 'coming' is the one to fear, tho.

 

[Sonny]

So says all religions that happen to dominate at a certain point in history. One can as well say God planned the British empire so that His favored language, English, becomes the dominant language of the world.

Or, that He planned the British Empire to bring back His chosen people's homeland, Israel. There is nothing that God has not had a hand in, one way or another, in history. Without England's vast power and massive colonization programs (to say nothing of the new and massive American military might) Israel would not- could not- have become a State again. Yet, God said He would bring them back as a nation. (Think about that, Matt) Also, what other nation, even superpower, has made a comeback? Not one. To say or think there isn't a God or that the Judeo-Christian God isn't God is to deny so many undeniable facts of history and the Bible. I can't do that bc I can't get past all of the evidence. Matt, did your research lead you to this issue? How did it impact you? Why are you sitting on the fence still, if you studied it, I mean?

 

[1robin]

Not to toot my own horn, but I have a Doctorate of Theology from seminary, so I might know a thing or two about the subject.

The concept of Hell is a fabrication by the Church that is used as a control mechanism. People used to be burned at the stake as a form of execution, often in front of a large crowd. The visual horror of the person being burned alive, their screams, and the smell of burnt flesh permeated the minds of all those that witnessed it. The Church banked on that fear to create Hell as a place of eternal torment by fire, such as what was witnessed in those executions. It was fear mongering 101.

The Bible never says that people will be sent to Hell for eternal torment. If anyone thinks that it does, I challenge you to name the verse. What is stated is that the adversary (satan), the beast and the false prophet (the 3) will be cast into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented forever. That is found in Revelation 20:10.

Revelation 20:14 states that death (actually dying) and Hades (Greek - the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire. That will be the 2nd death (end). The verse is pointing out that death and the grave will be no more (done away with; destroyed), as there will be no more dying in paradise (Rev. 21).

Revelation 20:15 states that anyone who does not have their name in the book of life will also be cast into the lake of fire (destroyed).

The problem is that traditional Christian interpretation takes the fate of the 3 and lumps all of those who are not in the book, as having the same fate. That is not what John was getting at. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be destroyed (cease to exist in any form), not tormented eternally. The modern era of theologians know this and the truth is being told. This obviously goes against the grain of popular belief.

Maybe this will help:

I am probably going to agree with a lot you say here. I believe in annihilation of Hell, Satan, and all it's contents in the finite future. However let me make a few observations.

1. Not a single one of us actually knows if there is a Hell or not. You simply can't have certainty about universal negatives.

2. I agree that primarily the Catholic church used the imagery of the valley of Gehenna as a scare tactic, with it's fire and worms etc....

3. There either is, will be, or has been a Hell of some type because the bible says God prepared it for Satan and the demons (fallen angels).

4. I believe the second death is the annihilation of the soul for a few reasons.

A. If God is omnipresent the only way a soul could be separate from God would be to not be present (annihilation or non-being).

B. No matter how much sin a person packed into a lifetime it would still be finite. No just God would enact an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

C. The bible says to fear God because only he can destroy the body and the soul. Why would a prophet warn of something that would never occur?

Of course much more can be said about Hell but I wanted to start small.

Where did you graduate from? Do you have a personal faith?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

An open mind accepts the facts, especially when they are both undeniable and irrefutable. But you have not. You may be a lot of things, Matt, but by your own words you are not open minded about the Christian God. None of us can produce God (which is what atheists and such often want when they ask us to prove there is a God) but we can provide proof of His existence. What you do with that will be known by all at the Great White Judgment. But no one is open-minded who ignores or refuses the facts.

What an open mind does here is it looks at all the claimed evidence and arguments with an attitude that is completely open to it as a possibility, but doesn't reject it simply because the person doesn't want it to be true. That is all an open mind does. That is what I have done the whole way through and I have to remain undecided. I have never refused or ignored anything here.

That is why we investigate their claims 'personally' or trust those who do. The only way to know something is or isn't true, did or didn't occur is to research it. Have you researched the prophecy about Alexander, the Great? Did you even know it was in the Bible? You did say you had research stuff nearly ad infinitum. Do you know where that passage is?

Research does not always lead to a conclusion on one side being right and the other side being wrong. Sometimes in life, deep research only leads to an undecided conclusion and there being no definite answer. Sometimes in life, there truly is no definite answer out there. Therefore, some types of research are nothing more than wild goose chases.

God looks at the heart. He knows who is and isn't following Him. Those who don't know of Him are no less saved then those who do, if they are doing their best to serve 'God'. One doesn't have to own/read a Bible to know there is a God or to serve Him, only to serve Him better and right.

There are many people out there (including me) who would respond to this by saying that there never was any innate knowledge of God inherent within them. They would say that there was never any inner voice inside of them telling them that there was a God and to serve him. They are being honest and genuine when saying this.

I see no evidence for what it is you have said that we all have this inherent knowledge of God within us and for that God to be the Christian God. Some people might question reality as they grow older and think that there was a creator behind all of it, but that is only natural. That is not evidence that this individual has some sort of inherent divine knowledge within him/her.

You are angry bc you are open-minded? If you feel there is no God then what are you so angry about? Christians words don't affect the non-believer, just those who are convicted by their lifestyle choices.

Because in the pretend event that he is real, it would be the most horrible thing for me to go to hell and never get out over some disbelief that was honest and genuine about.

So, explain your view of the Alexander passage. If you've honestly done that much research then you should know that one by heart- it is one of the most spoken of prophecies in Christianity- at least in my circle.
I'll be waiting for your reply to this.

I have read it in the past and what skeptics have said about it in the past, but have still remained undecided. Furthermore, I have already forgotten it because when searching for the truth, it is not a situation where I dedicate my life to learning a certain subject (such as neuroscience). If I did, then all that nonscientific knowledge would be maintained since I would have dedicated my life to learning it and remembering it.

But when it comes to searching for the truth as to whether God exists or not, it is not a life dedication in learning and remembering for me. Rather, it is a one-time thing. I will look and search all I can into as much claimed evidence as I can find and what skeptics have to say about it, but if I can't decide what is true, then I will just have to remain undecided.

Uhhh, that is not what you've been saying. How can you be open-minded about something you have researched ad nauseum? It is impossible to know that much about something and be undecided. The evidence alone, or lack thereof, changes one's mind one way or the other.

That is just your personal worldview that my undecided position is false and that I should be convinced if I were a truly open minded person.

Lastly, you skipped over this one post I made in reply to you. So go ahead and respond to this post of mine as well in addition to all of the other points I have made above here:

At this point, I have researched all I could and have grown tired and lost complete interest because I have a composing dream that I want to live for. That is my life's goal and dream. My life's goal and dream is not to waste my life searching for the truth that I probably will still remain undecided on anyway.

You might frown upon me for that, but doing so would be nonsense because it would be no different than a situation where there are dentists or painters who frown upon me for having no interest in pursuing their career. I simply have no interest in their career and they should understand that.

They should understand that I am my own individual wish his own interests, values, and moral standards. They should not then have me to go hell and never get me out over that. Same thing applies to this Christian God (if he is real).



If you read all my posts in this topic, then I justify how it would be an all loving, all just, and morally righteous God from my perspective who would let the creation dictate his/her own life as long as he/she is kind, isn't cruel, and doesn't harm and torture others. Really, this is what this whole topic was about. I have been giving my own personal arguments all long to support and uphold this.

I'm also already aware of what you've just mentioned regarding the Bible's claimed predictive power, but I still have to remain undecided. It has nothing to do with a lack of acceptance or anything else. It is instead based on an honest and genuine mindset as I've stated countless times before. Therefore, having a debate here regarding the validity of the claimed evidence is pointless.

But I can debate the moral nature of God which is what I have been doing here this entire time. At least my honest and genuine mindset has me actually disagreeing with the moral nature of God being all loving, all just, and morally righteous. At least I am not undecided on that issue. That issue is clearly obvious to me.

But when it comes to a highly intellectual debate regarding science and evidence (especially one that is ongoing between highly intelligent people), I just have to remain undecided here. But morality is something intrinsic in my life and I can clearly decide on this issue.

It is no different than a situation where I can already decide in my life whether it is right or wrong to harm my mother or brother. It would be clearly wrong for me to do so. But if you were to compare that to an ongoing debate of highly intellectual people regarding validity of claimed evidence, then that is something I have to remain undecided on. That is a different issue entirely.

 

[Sonny]

Quoting your holy book doesn't count as evidence.
Atheists, like me, think that The Bible are man made books written by humans 2000 years ago. They are proven to be false, contradictory and definitely not trustworthy.

Do you have any other evidence??

What about the undeniable (and irrefutable) facts? Let me give you a couple (try imagining the time they lived in as you consider what they said),
Israel- a nothing nation in decline- would become a nation again 'in the End Times'. 1948
A 200 million man Army when about 50 million lived on earth. Saying that, to be descriptive, is like me/someone saying a time will come when there will be an Army of 28 Billion (just an army). Yeah, they heard God right and wrote it that way. Today, we have 3 groups that can muster a 200 million-man Army.
A massive Meteor (Asteroid/Comet) will hit earth and knock it off its Axis (Equator may become a Pole, etc). We know, today, they are out there and coming. But not so much in 1st Century AD. In 2004, Indonesia the earth was 'knocked off Axis by 2 1/2 centimeters. It can/will happen large scale.
Nukes are mentioned/described in Bible (twice) roughly 2400 years before the first was made.
Men and Dinos lived together. We've found footprints with both in the same rock beside each other.
The Bible predicted Debit/Credit cards (sorta) and, bc of scams, a mark on hand/forehead. We can see the technology coming- implantable devices that have our info on but cannot be stolen or duplicated.
Only a real God that can see the future while standing in the past could say/describe/predict these things and be spot on. And, only the Bible's God said it. Since then lots of 'others' have said as much but Bible was first. And there is many more of these predictions, fulfilled and coming, from the Bible.
If ur not a Christian or believer then explain how the Bible could have predicted, so accurately- precisely, these events. I want to see how you reply to these known facts from 2,000-4,000 years ago.

 

[Sonny]

I am probably going to agree with a lot you say here. I believe in annihilation of Hell, Satan, and all it's contents in the finite future. However let me make a few observations.

1. Not a single one of us actually knows if there is a Hell or not. You simply can't have certainty about universal negatives.

2. I agree that primarily the Catholic church used the imagery of the valley of Gehenna as a scare tactic, with it's fire and worms etc....

3. There either is, will be, or has been a Hell of some type because the bible says God prepared it for Satan and the demons (fallen angels).

4. I believe the second death is the annihilation of the soul for a few reasons.

A. If God is omnipresent the only way a soul could be separate from God would be to not be present (annihilation or non-being).

B. No matter how much sin a person packed into a lifetime it would still be finite. No just God would enact an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

C. The bible says to fear God because only he can destroy the body and the soul. Why would a prophet warn of something that would never occur?

Of course much more can be said about Hell but I wanted to start small.

Where did you graduate from? Do you have a personal faith?

I agree some. The Bible/Jesus said Hell/Lake of Fire is real, was made for Devil and his demons (fallen angels), and those who hate God (if we don't serve Him then we do hate Him, He says- I agree) will suffer for all eternity. I hate that thought. But where else can an eternal soul go? Can't go to heaven- didn't want to. And Hell is the only other known place that God created. So, it becomes a default location for lost eternal souls. There is no reason for anyone, certainly in the Western world, to go to hell. It isn't hard to stay out. But it is a choice to go there. That comes back to research. If we go to college and Trade school to learn/earn a good living on earth why won't we take time to study/research for our eternal life? That is what gets me.

 

[Sonny]

What an open mind does here is it looks at all the claimed evidence and arguments with an attitude that is completely open to it as a possibility, but doesn't reject it simply because the person doesn't want it to be true. That is all an open mind does. That is what I have done the whole way through and I have to remain undecided. I have never refused or ignored anything here.



Research does not always lead to a conclusion on one side being right and the other side being wrong. Sometimes in life, deep research only leads to an undecided conclusion and there being no definite answer. Sometimes in life, there truly is no definite answer out there. Therefore, some types of research are nothing more than wild goose chases.



There are many people out there (including me) who would respond to this by saying that there never was any innate knowledge of God inherent within them. They would say that there was never any inner voice inside of them telling them that there was a God and to serve him. They are being honest and genuine when saying this.

I see no evidence for what it is you have said that we all have this inherent knowledge of God within us and for that God to be the Christian God. Some people might question reality as they grow older and think that there was a creator behind all of it, but that is only natural. That is not evidence that this individual has some sort of inherent divine knowledge within him/her.



Because in the pretend event that he is real, it would be the most horrible thing for me to go to hell and never get out over some disbelief that was honest and genuine about.



I have read it in the past and what skeptics have said about it in the past, but have still remained undecided. Furthermore, I have already forgotten it because when searching for the truth, it is not a situation where I dedicate my life to learning a certain subject (such as neuroscience). If I did, then all that nonscientific knowledge would be maintained since I would have dedicated my life to learning it and remembering it.

But when it comes to searching for the truth as to whether God exists or not, it is not a life dedication in learning and remembering for me. Rather, it is a one-time thing. I will look and search all I can into as much claimed evidence as I can find and what skeptics have to say about it, but if I can't decide what is true, then I will just have to remain undecided.



That is just your personal worldview that my undecided position is false and that I should be convinced if I were a truly open minded person.

Lastly, you skipped over this one post I made in reply to you. So go ahead and respond to this post of mine as well in addition to all of the other points I have made above here:

What I meant was, simply, someone who has studied as much as you claim you have cannot be undecided. The evidence- historical, Geographically, Geologically and scientifically would demand a judgment. You are the only person I have ever met that has done research but can decide if it is true or not or acceptable or not. It is almost like saying it's raining when it isn't and the sun is shining. You can't have it both ways. No one can. If one does the research, as I have- to some degree, then one has an answer. It can't be otherwise. The Bible predicted Alexander, the Great (in a truly awesome and precise/detailed way!) and science agrees but you are undecided? Matt, that doesn't make sense. No offense, but do you take any medications?

 

[Sonny]

Not knocking you at all. We wrote a story long ago and the story we wrote was that God himself came in flesh, walked amongst us raised people from the dead walked in water and those of us who were his closest followers had no clue to what he was talking about. He had to perform a rather interesting miracle for those of us whom were baffled by his teachings".

That's the story, so if they had a hard time I would say dealing with 2000 of books about books about a man who never wrote a single word but is the author of the text, is tricky tricky tricky in the very least. Sort of have to kind keep discovering and trust. I may understand the text but if I do, and God himself couldn't explain it in person I have even less of a chance here!! Peace

The main point was, we have two views on life, evolution or creation...well, there's transpermia but same-same, really- aliens were either created or evolved.
The story that was written is full of predictions (prophecies) that have, indeed, come true- or we can see they are about to come true. Were it not for those I'd agree with you. But, those darn ffacts are there and impossible for the average human of that day (any day, even ours for some of them) could have never just thot up. How do you explain them?