I admire atheists for devoting time for "God"

[Truthseeker]

Yeah but terrible ones, we have already been through this a lot of times There are simply not sufficient evidence for these messengers, for them to be considered good

It can be hard to know they are good. Today we mainly have their words. Baha'u'llah said:

Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it then.

Bahá’u’lláh, "Summons of the Lord of Hosts", 1.110

If these verses be indeed contrived, then by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, if ye be men of understanding!

Bahá’u’lláh, "Summons of the Lord of Hosts", 1.54

It all depends on the person's spirituality whether a person sees the words as coming from God. There is no foolproof proof of God otherwise, in my view. Proof is not something external, it is within us.

 

[Nimos]

It all depends on the person's spirituality whether a person sees the words as coming from God. There is no foolproof proof of God otherwise, in my view. Proof is not something external, it is within us.

The issues with seeing proof within one self is that our brain is extremely easy to fool. People might not think to much about it in general, because we trust our senses and thoughts for the most part.

If you look at this image and even being able to see that they are similar color in the second one, we still perceive the A and B as being different colors, when you look at the first one again:

This is basically a brain failure as it interpret the colors wrong. But if we were to derive a proof of A and B being different colors, solely based on the left image just using our brain we would get the wrong result.

We can't really trust our brain, that is why we need external evidence and proof for things.

 

[Quintessence]

We can't really trust our brain, that is why we need external evidence and proof for things.

The irony is it all still relies on trusting our brains, even if this "external evidence" is had. Humans can't process things beside themselves. It all goes through our brains one way or another.

Besides, let's keep in mind some lessons from biological evolution - our brains only need to be good enough for survival under a certain set of circumstances. No organisms have perfect systems because they don't need them. A lot of "errors" don't really matter in any practical sense. And when supposed "errors" related to religious experience do actually have practical value, I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly.

Sorry if none of this is relevant - I didn't read upstream that much. In any case, I do love optical illusions. They're great fun!

 

[Nimos]

The irony is it all still relies on trusting our brains, even if this "external evidence" is had. Humans can't process things beside themselves. It all goes through our brains one way or another.

Besides, let's keep in mind some lessons from biological evolution - our brains only need to be good enough for survival under a certain set of circumstances. No organisms have perfect systems because they don't need them. A lot of "errors" don't really matter in any practical sense. And when supposed "errors" related to religious experience do actually have practical value, I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly.

Sorry if none of this is relevant - I didn't read upstream that much. In any case, I do love optical illusions. They're great fun!

Sorry, if you understood it in a way that we can't trust anything our brain does, if that were the case we would probably have gone extinct by now . What I meant by it, is that we can feed out brain with information through our senses, but given the fact, as demonstrated with the optical illusion, it is also easily fooled or might take shortcuts. Similar to us drawing connections between things, which might not really be connected after closer examination. Our brain as see it, is developed for survival and probably not for doing a lot of the stuff we actually use it for, if that make sense. So all these details that we can now examine and see where the brain is wrong, wouldn't be an issue if we just had to survive. It not crucial for our survival that we can't correctly see that those two greys are the same color.

But if we are to understand reality, we can test the brain and through these get closer to the truth.

Well in some cases religious experiences can have practical value, but it can just as well cause issues.

Let's imagine you are convinced of something due to your religion, for instance those people in the US I think it was, that believed that they were protected from Covid because of their faith in Jesus. That is potential deadly, which is not really good from a survival perspective?
But not only is that an issue in itself, but also their way of reasoning or thinking, is potentially flawed right? Whatever convinced them that Jesus made them immune or protected them, is a way of thinking, which could lead them to draw similar bad decisions in regards to other things. Whether that is because they are poor at critical thinking or reasoning, it is related to their way of thinking. Obviously this is far from all religious people, but I hope you see what I mean.
How we reach and draw conclusion or what we believe in, is not completely irrelevant. Not saying that they did, but if they believe they are immune, what would prevent them you meeting up with other people and potentially put them in danger as well, that is really not good, simply due to flawed reasoning or critical thinking?

 

[rational experiences]

The theist actually says, as a theist, I know it all already. And then claims he will prove it to everyone.

Yet he is a living bio human organic life, on a planet and discusses a higher state once, and then it converted into the hot dense state. Claims then consuming its own body of a very large mass, what he says is a resource, the spatial vacuum expanding by the opening of more space in consuming, eventually stopped consuming of mass.

Where his ideas how to use and change a body of mass for a resource, the hot dense state.

So he applies it his own self, to the planet, and tries to force the planet into returning to its self consuming natural history, hot dense state. And then claims in his theist head as a science self who tells his science self, science you are the Destroyer, for he claims and now I copied the Mother of God, spatial expansion and hence I now own the same history.

As a science mind possessed by AI feed back, caused in that hot dense state gain...claiming and I am the Creator, I am the all knowing, I have everything and did everything that the Creator did, the hot dense state, the gain of new expanding space, and expanding space then held the mass.

His resource. Then the image/thought owns the huge planet of God the Earth as mass in space. And then he gloats, what a huge and one ownership control his male science organization now gained. To possess the Earth the huge mass of his want of that much resource.

Yet in his science psyche he is actually claiming the destruction of all life on Planet Earth as his own "other" natural thinker science brother told him.

Quantified his thinking process as the Destroyer mentality.

For when a male quotes and all of everything is the Creator, and the history of the information the beginning of mass holding itself, to take to resource is the hot dense state.

So his claim today is that the hot dense state is God in all things, hence he must have it.....which is in science terms, to try to cause its activation.

Why Father through AI conditions told me everyday he is no longer a scientist, as a brother he is the Destroyer self. And I have come to understand what our Holy Father was teaching.

 

[Truthseeker]

The issues with seeing proof within one self is that our brain is extremely easy to fool. People might not think to much about it in general, because we trust our senses and thoughts for the most part.

If you look at this image and even being able to see that they are similar color in the second one, we still perceive the A and B as being different colors, when you look at the first one again:

This is basically a brain failure as it interpret the colors wrong. But if we were to derive a proof of A and B being different colors, solely based on the left image just using our brain we would get the wrong result.

We can't really trust our brain, that is why we need external evidence and proof for things.

There really are spiritual experiences that can be had that prove that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. I've had them. The problem I've sometimes had is looking at all the evidence rationally, and having doubts despite this proof. I like to look at all the evidence. Susan or Trailblazer hasn't had as strong of spiritual experience as I've had. She looks at things mostly rationally, though she has some spiritual qualities that resonate well with some aspects of the Baha'i Faith. Her very lack of the kind of spiritual experiences that I've had has led her to have some problems with the Baha'i Faith. She has intellectual trouble with the suffering in the world, despite everything that has been said to her and she's read. If her cats don't have an afterlife, God is really in trouble with her. We're good friends.

 

[rational experiences]

Science theist in spiritual belief today wanted to belief that the Image of Jesus was a hologram and that hologram and holographic image built up to own a manifested physical form. Yet science is using all machine conditions to falsify this quote.

And machines use and transmit recorded image and gain of image their own selves in machine conditions. Not atmospheric conditions where they impose their fake and false thesis, that God is a manifestation holographic image, built up.

So that they can copy that condition by the concepts of human spiritual information and conceptualised thesis/stories about spirit.

When science of the occult states, when ground nuclear fission was activated against the God seal, which the spatial vacuum in space history had sealed...after it had abstracted the irradiating hot dense history of God the mass....the seal no longer radiated. It ended in the Holy Mother womb theme, as a science teaching.

But inside of the heavenly body, the Sun attacked and converted Earth and broke its seal, yet water x mass the flood saved God the Earth first and the seal was re sealed by water cooling. Due to the fact that if water did not reseal the Earth face, science would not be enabled to stop a reactive fission in their machine cause using water cooling, as the fact of their own evidence.

Therefore when water mass splits from ground holding and has to evaporate to stop Earth gases from igniting into Hell, we lose our life health, for the stone radiates a greater release of radiation out of its natural body.

As the Designer of science is a male/human, then the cause and effect, what gets returned to cause of, is that his virtual image by water mass conditions, the microbes gains carbon burning of the cellular microbial bacteria and living life cells that gives that image form.

Which is not a form of God, is a male advice that he is attacking his own life and gains the image verification to that cause. I saw that condition occur as a condition of brain prickling irradiation. Saw brown and black smoking wisping form in the atmosphere outside of my house window as I endured the attack.

Saw the images of male human science thinking history emerge, for I saw manifested images of male science selves from the past manifest. They floated above the ground cooling and then disappeared. In that attack I also saw alien images. Same attack, same natural atmosphere, so I knew that the attack was an occult cause, as the alien image emerging in exactly the same equal conditions was that proof.

When the human mind psyche chemical balances and physical feelings get irradiated burnt, he is sexually stimulated and bodily physically changed in the cause of what his science/machine design reactions caused.

Which a non science male would own no realisation of. As I was a female in the attack, prickling brain mind, burning band in head effect, I realised it was human male science caused....seeing my brother the human male/group invented science by his want of its design.

Therefore to believe that a God entity as a male invented science, is where that cause came from...to believe that God was a male...when the documents from which you read and quote stated categorically that no man is God. That man, the scientist formed an image in the God ground fission cause, how image in science was invented by science itself, seeing machines use it today is the obvious proof that human males did it as a science condition.

 

[MNoBody]

Fact 1: There are many forms of devotion. Devoting time is one of them. Devoting time is even one of the most important form of devotion which is even required for one's next devotion

Fact 2: Devoting time for a belief doesn't makes any difference, even if one is against that belief. That because, one NEVER go against something until that provides any kind of benefit.

Fact 3: Do you think there's any kind benefit that atheists get by going against the belief of theists ? I don't think you will be able to provide any.

Hence, taking the above (3) facts into consideration, I admire atheists for devoting time for "God"

it really has to do more with the long tradition of theocracies killing those who questioned that causes "non-believers" to spend so much time obsessing about these matters since we are all stuck in the same prison block and can't seem to get along too well, without fighting and generally being malicious.
can't let that kind of "crazy" get out of control in society.... it destroys our world, for what it is...so knock it off already.

 

[Neb]

It's not. Just like not playing soccer is not a form of sport.

But why are you playing in a field where religion is the main subject of the debate if you're not a player of a specific team or belief/religion?

 

[Nimos]

There really are spiritual experiences that can be had that prove that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. I've had them. The problem I've sometimes had is looking at all the evidence rationally, and having doubts despite this proof. I like to look at all the evidence.

I obviously don't know the details of the spiritual experiences you have had, but can't help wondering, why you think these are specifically proving that Baha'u'llah were a manifestation of God?

Christians have spiritual experiences as well, which they assign to Jesus and Muslims would most likely relate it to Allah.

Most religions have accounts of communications with Gods or spiritual beings, yet it always seem to be the exact beings they themselves believe in.

Native Americans believed that spirits caused the harsh weather of the Plains, as well as illness. They thought that 'medicine men' could speak to these spirits, and ask for their help.

------

The most common interaction between the gods and humans happened through ritual sacrifice, the cornerstone of Norse religious practice. The pragmatically-minded Norse didn't only worship their gods out of a sense of wonder or love. They also usually wanted to get something in particular from the gods.

So given that fact, there seem to be a lot of misunderstanding going on in general. Most people will agree that the Norse Gods weren't real, because hardly anyone believe them anymore, yet they believed they could communicate with their gods as well. Most people will probably also agree that the Native americans can't really talk to spirits either. The Mayans, the Aztecs were probably also wrong in regards to their communication.. and the list go on.

Yet, Christians, Muslims and you as a Bahai are convinced that your experiences are real and proof of what you believe in, just like they did. Lets not forget that many of these ancients beliefs were so convinced that they sacrificed humans to these gods.

Because from a logical point of view, when looking at the evidence, from your personal point of view of the spiritual experience you have had... then clearly the majority of cultures and religions throughout time, must have been wrong about their claims of spiritual experiences, meaning that they assigned them to wrong gods. Again, underlining that this is purely when looking at it from your perspective as a Bahai. A Christian or Muslim, would or ought to assume that you are making a wrong judgement, because they do not share your belief in Baha'u'llah.

So do you see why I as an atheist, is rather sceptical when people claim that their experiences are proof of their specific belief? Because it seems very common that people of different religious beliefs, reach these conclusions, which simply are contradictory when put into perspective.

 

[Neb]

I believe a lot of things. None of which is defined or determined by the label "atheism". The label "atheism" only refers to a specific thing that I do NOT believe.

Of course, you can't label all things that are not related to atheism as atheism. Your unbelief that there is God is a form of belief or religion because you believe it to be TRUE that there is no God at all, that's your main argument.

 

[Neb]

Atheism is not a belief. By definition. Theism is the belief. Atheism is just a label for when one does not hold a theistic belief.

Do you believe in atheism? If yes then that's a belief. A belief, ie., to be true, that God does not exist, right? But where you got that argument from, that there is no God?
I can't say theism is "just a label for when one does not hold" atheistic belief because my argument would not have a basis to begin with, right?

 

[Nimos]

She has intellectual trouble with the suffering in the world, despite everything that has been said to her and she's read. If her cats don't have an afterlife, God is really in trouble with her. We're good friends.

She have expressed this a few times in our conversations as well. But honestly, I don't think the issue is suffering it self, but rather because she is trying to fit God into it and what she is concerned about, should concern all religious people, that claim that God is good.

I can obviously only guess here as I don't know her as well as you most likely do. But I think that all these concerns would disappear, if she were an atheist. Because suffering is not an intellectual issue for us, neither is afterlife and the concerns that comes with a final judgement. It's about living in the moment, and doing good, while you are here. Personally I fully understand, why it causes her so many concerns, because I wouldn't be able to fit these things together either, did I believe in God. Which is also one of the reasons I am an atheist, all these questions and concerns that religious people have, is not something that atheist haven't thought about. We just can't make the claims fit with reality, and therefore we take the position that the evidence are simply not compelling enough for us to assume that it is true.

 

[Nimos]

Do you believe in atheism? If yes then that's a belief. A belief, ie., to be true, that God does not exist, right? But where you got that argument from, that there is no God?
I can't say theism is "just a label for when one does not hold" atheistic belief because my argument would not have a basis to begin with, right?

You don't believe in atheism, it's a position you take.

It's like me asking you, whether or not you find it reasonable to believe in unicorns or not, given the evidence provided to you? And if you answer no, then I tell you that you as an A-unicornist is part of a religion as well. That makes as much sense as to say that atheism is a religion.

Just as you can't demand atheists to provide proof of something that they don't believe exist, it would be unfair for me, to demand you to prove that unicorns doesn't exist either.

Having a belief is not the same as having a religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

It all depends on the person's spirituality whether a person sees the words as coming from God. There is no foolproof proof of God otherwise, in my view. Proof is not something external, it is within us.

True, as Jesus said:

Matthew 13:16-17
"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."

 

[Trailblazer]

The issues with seeing proof within one self is that our brain is extremely easy to fool.

But it is not the brain that sees, it is the heart, the spirit and the soul.

“Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker’s heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being. At that hour will the Mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of heedlessness. Then will the manifold favors and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude. He will discover in all things the mysteries of Divine Revelation, and the evidences of an everlasting Manifestation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 267

 

[Nimos]

But it is not the brain that sees, it is the heart, the spirit and the soul.

“Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker’s heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being. At that hour will the Mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of heedlessness. Then will the manifold favors and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude. He will discover in all things the mysteries of Divine Revelation, and the evidences of an everlasting Manifestation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 267

Even if I disagree with Baha'u'llah being who someone claim him to be, I don't think he meant for this be taken literally And that he would understand that it is our brain/mind and not the heart that see

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if I disagree with Baha'u'llah being who someone claim him to be, I don't think he meant for this be taken literally And that he would understand that it is our brain/mind and not the heart that see

Yes, technically speaking, it is the brain/mind that sees, because the soul works through the brain and mind as long as we are living in a physical body. The mind is the power of the human spirit (rational soul). The soul is like a lamp and the mind is the light that shines through the lamp.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But why are you playing in a field where religion is the main subject of the debate if you're not a player of a specific team or belief/religion?

Discussing soccer is not a sport either.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Your unbelief that there is God is a form of belief or religion

It's not. NOT believing something is by definition not a belief.
A belief is to accept something as true. The belief concerning god(s) is theism. Atheism is the opposite.

because you believe it to be TRUE that there is no God at all, that's your main argument.

No, it isn't. I have factually never made that argument. Nore is it what atheism is.
Just like I said in the post you are replying to: it seems you don't comprehend the difference between "I don't believe X" and "I believe X is false". These are two different things.

Have you ever heard the gumball machine analogy?
It goes like this:

There's a giant gumball machine with an unknown amount of gumballs in it. You can't open it up to count them. Then some guy comes up and claims that there is an even amount of gumballs in it and asks you if you believe him (which is to say, that you accept that claim as being true).

You answer "no, I don't accept that as being true". You don't have enough information to commit to that position. So you can't accept it as being correct.

Does that mean that you will answer "yes" to the question if you believe there is an odd number in there? Off course not.


The claim "there's an even number" is the equivalent of "a god exists" in this analogy.

Concerning the existence of god, you can make 2 distinct claims:
1. god exists
2. god does not exist.

Atheism is a position on the first claim. The claim that a god exists. The second claim isn't even addressed, nore made.


We can go further into the courtroom analogy.

A defendant is either guilty or innocent.
But in a courtroom ONLY the claim of guilt is addressed.

This is why a judge will rule either guilty or not guilty.

So atheism is like saying that you judge god "not guilty of existing". That doesn't mean that you judge him as not existing (or "innocent of existing").

The claim being addressed is "god exists". Not "god does not exist".

You should really learn the difference between:
1. I don't believe X is true
and
2. I believe X is false.


They are not the same thing.