Hypocrites (non-Muslims defending Islam)

[Piculet]

I don't defend other people's religions. Though I perhaps try to understand their point of view sometimes. I wouldn't like someone, not of my religion trying to defend it, well if I had one. I think it would feel very patronizing.

Not to me. If a non-Muslim manages to say something true and useful, I am very glad. No problem whatsoever. But the chances of that happening are devastatingly small and the opposite happens constantly.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

No. The religions that change are the ones that become irrelevant.

How are you so sure that your religion hasn't changed at all?

 

[Polymath257]

No. The religions that change are the ones that become irrelevant.

That doesn't seem to be the case given history. Those that don't change tend to become ossified and irrelevant to people, so they leave the religion and it becomes irrelevant to everyone.

Those people you are complaining about with tight jeans and music have, essentially, decided that your interpretation of Islam is irrelevant to them.

 

[Piculet]

How are you so sure that your religion hasn't changed at all?

It is from God and it cannot be changed per se. I never said "at all".

 

[icehorse]

Non-Muslims who defend Islam against the futile attacks of blatant islamophobes.

Can you provide examples of this? (You could anonymize them if you want to.)

 

[Polymath257]

It is from God and it cannot be changed per se. I never said "at all".

Your opinion is that it is from God. The belief of your religion is that it is from God.

That is not the same as actually being from God (or that there even is a God).

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

It is from God and it cannot be changed per se. I never said "at all".

The path you follow is indeed from God. But God revealed also paths to those who have been led astray in your eyes. Everyone gets what he or she deserves. Whether it be good or bad.

 

[Piculet]

Your opinion is that it is from God. The belief of your religion is that it is from God.

That is not the same as actually being from God (or that there even is a God).

You're right in that my belief is not automatically the same as reality. But the reality is that it is from God.

 

[Polymath257]

You're right in that my belief is not automatically the same as reality. But the reality is that it is from God.

Again, your belief. Others say their scriptures are from God. I believe none are (since I don't believe any deities exist at all).

But they are all opinions.

 

[Polymath257]

Not to me. If a non-Muslim manages to say something true and useful, I am very glad. No problem whatsoever. But the chances of that happening are devastatingly small and the opposite happens constantly.

Funny. I see the same thing with theists.

 

[Piculet]

Can you provide examples of this? (You could anonymize them if you want to.)

I'm not arguing based on this forum.

If x quotes an authentic hadith saying something which, to a non-Muslim, might strike as absurd and first thing y does, is deny this is a real hadith or that Muslims follow such a teaching.

If x mocks the way Muslim women are to dress and y rushes to explain that the dress is indeed outdated, but is no longer necessary because the rules regarding dress were only relevant at the time of the revelation.

If x mocks the permission for men to have four wives, y says, it is only for when some woman needs a husband and there is no one available anymore, but fails to provide any evidence for it.

 

[stvdv]

The problem comes precisely when the defender thinks or pretends they are defending Islam as a religion

when at the same time they are attempting (possibly unawares and by accident) to corrupt Muslims by leading some of them away from Islam.

Koran says in verse 4:88 the following:

Muhammad Sarwar: Why are you divided into two different parties concerning the hypocrites, when God Himself has turned them to disbelief because of their misdeeds. Do you want to guide those whom God has caused to go astray? You cannot find guidance for those whom God has made to err.

Seems to me, that according to Koran nobody can corrupt Muslims by leading some of them away from Islam:
"Do you want to guide those whom God has caused to go astray? You cannot find guidance for those whom God has made to err."

God is the one who caused them to go astray. It's an illusion to believe humans can undo what God has done.

 

[Polymath257]

I'm not arguing based on this forum.

If x quotes an authentic hadith saying something which, to a non-Muslim, might strike as absurd and first thing y does, is deny this is a real hadith or that Muslims follow such a teaching.

If x mocks the way Muslim women are to dress and y rushes to explain that the dress is indeed outdated, but is no longer necessary because the rules regarding dress were only relevant at the time of the revelation.

If x mocks the permission for men to have four wives, y says, it is only for when some woman needs a husband and there is no one available anymore, but fails to provide any evidence for it.

And do some Moslems believe these alternatives? Maybe they disagree whether a particular hadith is authentic? Or still in force?

 

[icehorse]

I'm not arguing based on this forum.

If x quotes an authentic hadith saying something which, to a non-Muslim, might strike as absurd and first thing y does, is deny this is a real hadith or that Muslims follow such a teaching.

If x mocks the way Muslim women are to dress and y rushes to explain that the dress is indeed outdated, but is no longer necessary because the rules regarding dress were only relevant at the time of the revelation.

If x mocks the permission for men to have four wives, y says, it is only for when some woman needs a husband and there is no one available anymore, but fails to provide any evidence for it.

Thanks for these examples, they help me understand your OP.

I have to agree with all of the other posters who have pointed out that Muslims are notorious for not agreeing with each other.

 

[Piculet]

Koran says in verse 4:88 the following:


Seems to me, that according to Koran nobody can corrupt Muslims by leading some of them away from Islam:
"Do you want to guide those whom God has caused to go astray? You cannot find guidance for those whom God has made to err."

God is the one who caused them to go astray. It's an illusion to believe humans can undo what God has done.

Beside the fact that you apparently think you're too wise to use the tafser to understand the Quran, you missed something within what you quoted, namely: when God Himself has turned them to disbelief because of their misdeeds.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Who asserts that Evangelicals are not representative of "True Christianity"?

Jehovah's Witnesses

 

[stvdv]

Beside the fact that you apparently think you're too wise to use the tafser to understand the Quran, you missed something within what you quoted, namely: when God Himself has turned them to disbelief because of their misdeeds.

I don't think "I am too wise"

I think any Human, including Muslim has done "misdeeds"
So, indeed I applied it correctly (probably Allah did this too)

 

[Piculet]

Thanks for these examples, they help me understand your OP.

I have to agree with all of the other posters who have pointed out that Muslims are notorious for not agreeing with each other.

That would be very much beside the topic.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I've put him on ignore.

Bet I beat you to it.

 

[Polymath257]

That would be very much beside the topic.

If a non-Moslem uses the teachings of a Moslem you disagree with, it is quite relevant. They are defending Islam, as they have been taught, and have reason to believe they were taught correctly given that their teacher is Moslem.

More to the point, if a Moslem disagrees with your assessment of some aspect of Islam, how can a non-Moslem know who is correct?