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Hypocrites (non-Muslims defending Islam)

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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It strangles religious emotion and it creates enemies.
I want to say that yes, there is a lot of fighting in the east, but the truth is, there's a lot of fighting in the world, period. Between people of all religions and between people of the same religion. And before you say, "down with religion", know that you won't be able to convince everyone that religion is a lie because they very very strongly believe that it's true.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
I want to say that yes, there is a lot of fighting in the east, but the truth is, there's a lot of fighting in the world, period. Between people of all religions and between people of the same religion. And before you say, "down with religion", know that you won't be able to convince everyone that religion is a lie because they very very strongly believe that it's true.
Religion is the greatest. It comes with religious freedom. ;)
 

Piculet

Active Member
So, like, this 4 wives thing - no more, right? If you have more wives, you're in violation of Islamic law, right?
Yes. The extra ones would not be valid marriages. After the fourth, if you want to marry, you need to divorce one.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Non-Muslims who defend Islam against the futile attacks of blatant islamophobes.

What makes them hypocrites? That they're either secretly or openly hostile to Islam. They're only accepting toward what they think Islam could be if it was as corrupt as Christianity.

I say blatant islamophobes because perhaps over half of these defenders could actually be considered covert islamophobes themselves. They're accepting in any vague conversation, but as soon as an actual ruling of Islam is introduced to them from the Quran or the Sunnah, e.g. hijab is mandatory, 4 wives are permissable and modern dating is prohibited, they are, as a rule, somewhat shocked, uncomfortable and judgmental.

Don't confuse this with defending Muslims. That can be done even if one is openly hateful toward Islam. The problem comes precisely when the defender thinks or pretends they are defending Islam as a religion, when at the same time they are attempting (possibly unawares and by accident) to corrupt Muslims by leading some of them away from Islam.
I would say this thread is saying that because I defend Islam and Muslims right to believe what they do, it make me hypocritical??
Yes I am not a muslim my self, but I can not see what would make it wrong to be curious of Islam and stand up for them in a discussion.

Of course my knowledge of Islam is limited, maybe that's where do wrong :)
 

Piculet

Active Member
I would say this thread is saying that because I defend Islam and Muslims right to believe what they do, it make me hypocritical??
Yes I am not a muslim my self, but I can not see what would make it wrong to be curious of Islam and stand up for them in a discussion.

Of course my knowledge of Islam is limited, maybe that's where do wrong :)
No. This isn't about you. Your approach is open minded enough I would not think of you as such.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Non-Muslims who defend Islam against the futile attacks of blatant islamophobes.

What makes them hypocrites? That they're either secretly or openly hostile to Islam. They're only accepting toward what they think Islam could be if it was as corrupt as Christianity.

I say blatant islamophobes because perhaps over half of these defenders could actually be considered covert islamophobes themselves. They're accepting in any vague conversation, but as soon as an actual ruling of Islam is introduced to them from the Quran or the Sunnah, e.g. hijab is mandatory, 4 wives are permissable and modern dating is prohibited, they are, as a rule, somewhat shocked, uncomfortable and judgmental.

Don't confuse this with defending Muslims. That can be done even if one is openly hateful toward Islam. The problem comes precisely when the defender thinks or pretends they are defending Islam as a religion, when at the same time they are attempting (possibly unawares and by accident) to corrupt Muslims by leading some of them away from Islam.
I'll just put my opinion this way: Islam doesn't matter.

I don't care what ANY religion has to say about anything. What I care about is that we all are able to voice our opinions and that we use the consensus on what is deemed "right" versus "wrong" come to by using our intellects, argumentation for/against propositions and real-world modeling and evidence to guide us. This is the way it works ANYWAY - it only happens that in countries/places that are populated in vast majority by a particular religious type that the laws and mores used for said argumentation or in consensus belong to that religious majority. There is no difference except that there is some book that a lot of people seem to think is super duper important, and they let what that crap says dictate their own opinions - which is sad, really. Otherwise it is STILL the consensus, argumentation and evidence that drives what is morally acceptable in the society - its just that when the majority accepts some goofy book as evidence, then that's the bar that is set. It is set really, really low, in that case and in my opinion, but set it is.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'll just put my opinion this way: Islam doesn't matter.

I don't care what ANY religion has to say about anything. What I care about is that we all are able to voice our opinions and that we us the consensus on what is deemed "right" versus "wrong" come to by using our intellects, argumentation for/against propositions and real-world modeling and evidence to guide us. ...

I like to hear more about that.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I took it to be more like Westerners seeing things like Daesh and others and being too ignorant to realise that this isn't the 'True Islam' that these terrorist groups would have us believe. So they think that's a normal form of Islam. I'd rather compare it with people being wary of Christians because of groups like hardcore Evangelicals who want to stop people having abortions or getting SRS and other such groups.

Who defines what "True Islam" is? Who asserts that Evengelicals are not representative of "True Christianity"?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Who defines what "True Islam" is? Who asserts that Evengelicals are not representative of "True Christianity"?
A lot of these groups tend to define themselves this way.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I like to hear more about that.
What do you mean? Do you honestly believe that that isn't what we already do to come to our laws and guiding principles within the freest of human societies? Would you say that any country that doesn't do so is a better place to be? Like a severe dictatorship, for example - where no one does get to argue or raise their own opinion, for fear of having their lives destroyed by loyalists and the government?

And so, if in the (subjectively assessed) "best" of our societies, we let everyone be heard, allow open argumentation for and against propositions (basically what debates and votes are, at their core), then what is there to be said of those that conduct business otherwise? I feel that their methods are inferior - and I am completely allowed to think so and argue for such in the society I currently live in. How about the society you live in?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What do you mean? Do you honestly believe that that isn't what we already do to come to our laws and guiding principles within the freest of human societies? Would you say that any country that doesn't do so is a better place to be? Like a severe dictatorship, for example - where no one does get to argue or raise their own opinion, for fear of having their lives destroyed by loyalists and the government?

And so, if in the (subjectively assessed) "best" of our societies, we let everyone be heard, allow open argumentation for and against propositions (basically what debates and votes are, at their core), then what is there to be said of those that conduct business otherwise? I feel that their methods are inferior - and I am completely allowed to think so and argue for such in the society I currently live in. How about the society you live in?

That was all you need to clarify. I was unsure if you were going for a variant of objective morality, but you weren't.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Non-Muslims who defend Islam against the futile attacks of blatant islamophobes.

What makes them hypocrites? That they're either secretly or openly hostile to Islam. They're only accepting toward what they think Islam could be if it was as corrupt as Christianity.

I say blatant islamophobes because perhaps over half of these defenders could actually be considered covert islamophobes themselves. They're accepting in any vague conversation, but as soon as an actual ruling of Islam is introduced to them from the Quran or the Sunnah, e.g. hijab is mandatory, 4 wives are permissable and modern dating is prohibited, they are, as a rule, somewhat shocked, uncomfortable and judgmental.

Don't confuse this with defending Muslims. That can be done even if one is openly hateful toward Islam. The problem comes precisely when the defender thinks or pretends they are defending Islam as a religion, when at the same time they are attempting (possibly unawares and by accident) to corrupt Muslims by leading some of them away from Islam.
The religion of righteousness is practiced under many names.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I would say this thread is saying that because I defend Islam and Muslims right to believe what they do, it make me hypocritical??
Yes I am not a muslim my self, but I can not see what would make it wrong to be curious of Islam and stand up for them in a discussion.

Of course my knowledge of Islam is limited, maybe that's where do wrong :)

Defending the right to do X is not the same as defending X.
 
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