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Hunters: Live by the gun, die by the gun.

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by retrorich, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Hunters: Live by the gun, die by the gun.

    [font=verdana, arial, helvetica]HAYWARD, Wis. Nov 24, 2004 — The man suspected of shooting six hunters to death and a survivor agree that the tragedy began with a confrontation on private land. But they sharply differ on what happened next.

    Survivor Lauren Hesebeck told investigators Chai Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minn., turned around after a verbal exchange and started shooting his rifle from 40 yards away.

    But Vang told Sawyer County investigators he began firing only after one of Hesebeck's hunting buddies, Terry Willers, shot at him with a rifle from about 100 feet away and missed.

    Vang, a Hmong immigrant from Laos, also claimed the hunters taunted him with racial slurs and warned him he would be reported to law enforcement for being on private land, according to a document filed Tuesday.

    Hesebeck's version, contained in the same statement, makes no mention of that type of language or verbal hostility, other than saying Vang used profanity at one point.

    Hesebeck, who was released from a hospital Tuesday after treatment for a shoulder wound, told investigators Willers shot at Vang after Vang fired first but missed.

    Both accounts agreed that Vang shot the others as more people from the deer camp arrived at the scene, summoned by Hesebeck using a walkie-talkie to call for help.

    Vang said he continued firing as the group scattered, and at one point chased one of the hunters and shot him in the back, only to find the man had no gun, the document states.

    Authorities have said there was only one gun among the victims. According to investigators, it's believed Vang fired at least 20 shots.

    Hesebeck told the Star Tribune of Minneapolis on Tuesday that much of what he has heard in news media reports about the incident is not accurate.

    "A lot of it is not true," he said. "But at this point, I just can't discuss anything." Members of his family and another victim's family had planned to talk with reporters Wednesday but canceled the news conference.

    Sunday's shootings occurred after Vang got lost while hunting, climbed into a tree stand on private property and then got into the confrontation with Willers and others hunting with him.

    The victims were part of a group of about 15 people who made their annual opening-weekend trip to the 400-acre property co-owned by Robert Crotteau and Willers.

    Killed were Crotteau, 42; his son, Joey Crotteau, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Jessica Willers, 27; and Denny Drew, 55, all from the Rice Lake area. Terry Willers, Jessica's father, remained hospitalized Wednesday in good condition.

    Vang, an immigrant from Laos, was arrested about four hours after the shootings as he emerged from the woods with his empty semiautomatic rifle. Five people died in the woods; a sixth died Monday in a hospital. Two others were wounded.

    There have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region. Hunters have complained the Hmong do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they want. The tension once led to a fistfight in Minnesota, and a Hmong bow hunter in Wisconsin this fall reported having at least two white hunters point guns at him.

    About 24,000 Hmong live in St. Paul, the highest concentration of any U.S. city. Hmong leaders condemned the shootings and offered condolences to victims' families.

    "What happened in Wisconsin is in no way representative of the Hmong people and what they stand for," said Cha Vang, no relation to the suspect.

    "We stand before you as representatives of the greater law-abiding Hmong community to unconditionally unconditionally condemn these atrocities."

    New details about Vang began to emerge Tuesday.

    Military records obtained by The Associated Press show he spent six years in the California National Guard and earned a sharpshooter qualification badge. But his primary role during his time in the Guard, from 1989-95, involved clerical duties.

    After his discharge, he spent two more years in the Individual Ready Reserve. His records also include a Good Conduct medal.

    Circuit Judge Norman Yackel ordered Vang jailed Tuesday on $2.5 million bail. He ruled that evidence submitted to him was sufficient to hold Vang on suspicion of murder and attempted murder, pending the filing of formal charges.

    Please note:

    The following comments, and those in other posts I have made to this thread, refer only to so-called "pleasure hunters" who ENJOY killing animals.


    I feel sorry for the families of the six victims and the family of the alleged perpetrator.

    But I have zero sympathy for the victims or the perpetrator. They (the hunters) enjoyed pumping bullets into innocent animals. I wonder if they enjoyed being on the receiving end.
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  2. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    I think Vang just showed them that he was the better hunter. Why shouldnt the hunters be hunted as well?
     
  3. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Amen, Bro!
     
  4. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    While I tend to agree that either group were likely very good hunters , why do you assume they " enjoy pumping bullets into innocent animals " ? The use of the semi-automatic implies that Mr. Vang enjoyed " pumping bullets " into something , but there are many reasons people hunt .
     
  5. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who carries a gun is looking for trouble, period.
     
  6. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    Maybe they are just looking for food ? ;)
     
  7. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I don't think anyone has a need to shoot their food in the US.
     
  8. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    Never said there was a need . :) Although I disagree . I think that there are those who do have a need to hunt their food , only they can't afford to . :(

    Huajiro , most hunters try to drop an animal as quickly and as cleanly as possible . If not , you end up chasing the prey , resulting in a lot more work . Slaughter houses , on the other hand don't worry about " chasing " their prey . They often use mechanical knives to cut the animal's throat . Trust me on this one . A .30 caliber bullet , in the correct place , will kill much quicker then cutting an animal's throat . Much quicker then a pack of wolves kill their prey . Quicker then a great cat kills .

    Now , 'm not saying every one should run out and kill their own food . Just that in my opinion , there isn't much difference in hunting and raising beef .
     
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  9. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    :jam: Throw me a chunk of tofu anyday.
     
  10. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    lol Ok , but I will say right here that I like meat . I will eat tofu , if I have to ... ;)
     
  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    I prefer wild meat or home grown to mass produced domestic, no hormones and junk. I also don't think that the use of automatic weapons is 'sporting', infact I would rather have people hunt without guns. If done with respect to the animal I have no problem with hunting.
    If its treated as NASCAR or the NBA then I do have a problem with it.

    wa:do
     
  12. chelee

    chelee Member

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    Deer hunting is not just a sport in northern wisconsin, it is a necesity. Without it the deer population would grow too large, and they would starve to death. Ever heard of cronic wasting disease? i think you should research it before you declare that hunting is not necesary.
     
  13. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Wow. No, really, wow. I don't agree with hunting, but don't you think that's going a little too far? Dramatastic.

    Would it be right for a doctor to refuse you treatment because it was your fault for doing whatever it was that made you sick or hurt?



    What would you like them to hunt with?
     
  14. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Well... most people I know hunt with the humble Bow and Arrow. :jiggy:

    wa:do
     
  15. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    I'd much rather be shot with a gun than a bow and arrow. Death comes much quicker.


    I've seen deer limping on the sides of the roads with broken arrows sticking out of their legs. If you're going to kill, make it clean and make it fast.
     
  16. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    I, too, live in an area where the deer population is so overrun that a huge male deer trompted through the main streets of Cedar Rapids once and got to the second level of a local business center via the elevator. (I'll always wonder if he punched the button himself, or if whoever was exiting the elevator decided the oncoming passenger might enjoy a little trip upstairs.) He was thankfully rescued, but it makes even this animal-lover a bit curious about what the best way is of dealing with the situation. Naturally, I'm all for putting out *more* food for them to eat to prevent starvation, but I know that only would work in my mind and not reality. (Accursed reality!)
     
  17. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    I am a little shocked by your lack of sympathy for what I thought was a tragic event. I hope, just for the sake of consistency, that you're vegan and in favor of capital punishment. Because you're basically saying that animals have the same worth as humans and that anyone who kills deserves to be killed.
     
  18. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Agreed! I'm all for making things easier for the animal that's being shot, as opposed to caring about the aesthetics of the hunting weapons.

    Other people have pointed out the need for deer hunters for population control (since we killed off most of their predators). Another thing to take into account is that the license and registration fees paid by responsible hunters helps to support our park systems. Not to mention that most responsible hunters realize the need for conservation in order to preserve their sport.

    No, I don't hunt and actually, I don't eat much meat. But I don't see the sense in assuming that all hunters are evil (and deserve to die).

    One can't even make a good argument for hunting being crueler than farming. Personally, I would rather eat meat provided by a good hunter over anything bought at the local grocery store. The animal got a life of freedom and then a quick death.

    Most of the meat sold in this country comes from factory farming, where the animals are grown under really crowded conditions, pumped with antibiotics, and slaughtered without respect to their suffering. The workers get paid by production, not time, so they don't bother to "rekill" an animal if they "miss" the first time. Sometimes these poor creatures get butchered while they're still alive.

    Just because you can't see the violence doesn't mean it's not there.
     
  19. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    I WAS a vegan vegetarian for five years, but had to give it up because it was not compatible with my diebetic food regimen. I was literally starving to death. I would much prefer to be a vegan if it were possible.

    I DO believe in capital punishment.

    I DO believe that nonhuman animals have the same worth as humans--in many cases a greater worth. I would place a higher value on a deer than on a human who ENJOYS killing the deer. The key word in that sentence, and the essence of the issue to me, is ENJOYS.
     
  20. chelee

    chelee Member

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    Yay to lilithu!
    Currently the deer population in Wisconsin is over 1 million, and this past hunting season we bagged 200,000, there were 40,000 reported car vs. deer accidents (not to mention the countless non repoorted) and we havent' even really made a dent in the popoulation. (by the way, the average kill is much higher than 200,000, this was considered a "poor season")
    As for putting out more food for them, it is illegal now to feed deer in Wisconsin due to the problem we humans caused by feeding them... i'm refering again to chronic wasting disease.
    People need to be educated about the deer popoulation instead of going on a crusade to "save the deer". Lets save something that's actually endagered.
    As for the first entry, hunters are not heartless, and respect is needed for everyone, deer and humans included.
     
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