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Featured humankind is evil: change my mind

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Jan 23, 2023.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    Is humankind evil?

    I think so.....

    Humankind is evil. Change my mind :D

    Consider the following:

    Humankind has declared planet Earth to be its property

    I'm not sure where it got that idea from......

    Humankind is destroying the environment

    Humankind is unwilling to live in balance with the natural world that sustains it

    It has declared an enormous free-for-all on the Earth's resources that is detrimental to life and biodiversity

    Humankind is obsessed with accumulating a profit

    Its whole social and political organisation reflects its obsession with profit as does its entire culture, which serves to pacify dissent and brainwash people

    Humankind persecutes and exploits itself

    Humankind turns differences into divisions

    Humanity is vain and self-obsessed

    It knows it was made in the image of God but does not behave as though it is, quite the contrary

    It is even cruel to its own self - consider all the horrors of war (war being an integral part of its social organisation)

    And it wants to spread its nonsense throughout the galaxy, that is its long-term aim

    Message to extra-terrestrials: Keep away! We are bad news!

    But good news for you - we will most likely destroy ourselves before we can threaten you!

    Also: Fermi Paradox = Explained. We are an evil species. They want nothing to do with us.

    I believe Jesus will save many humans but that humankind will eventually cease to exist. Perhaps he will save humans from humankind????

    This kind of makes sense from a Christian point of view: Humankind is fallen but humankind will be restored. Eventually!
     
  2. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Let's grant for the moment that "evil" is a designator that makes sense and not argue that point (because it definitely can be).

    Aren't you just engaging in a bunch of one-sidedly negative over-generalizations?
     
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  3. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    I think I have painted a fair picture of humankind

    I can't think of anything positive to say about it, so if it's one-sided then that's because there is a lack of good things to say about it

    I am convinced that humankind is evil

    Even though individual humans can be good
     
  4. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    No human is evil and neither is humankind. Only actions are immoral ("evil").
    Having said that, the actions you list are immoral and irrational. But that is not the only things humans do. And we are getting better at acting moral. E.g. slavery is banned in almost all countries now. So, it's a mixed bag.
     
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  5. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    Isn't humankind's moral status the product of its actions?

    If my actions are immoral then doesn't that render me immoral?

    It is, but all that progress is very fragile and there's no guarantee the pendulum won't swing back the other way, indeed I suspect that over the next few centuries it will
     
  6. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Are you sure that's not your religious beliefs speaking? The picture you paint doesn't describe my experience of life, which is that people come in a variety of types, and that life includes sorting through them to find the ones that are essentially kind and constructive, and recognizing and excluding the others from one's world. My life rarely encounters what you would call evil.

    Whenever I see a hell-in-a-handbasket comment, I'm hearing from an Abrahamic theist, and I'm convinced that that is because they are inundated with that message. I don't hear that except from such people. There are a lot of unhappy people disappointed with life, but they still don't use that language. They use the language of unfairness. It's not that the world is a bad place for everybody, but it has been for them.

    In my opinion, much of the spoilage and irresponsibility you enumerated above comes from extracting the sacred from nature and sending it to heaven in the form of spirits with messages to us. Isn't the message of Christianity that this world is a terrible place, and to not be a part of it, for the wisdom of man is foolishness, and to instead keep one's attention focused on the prize in the sky. Matter itself is base and fit for apocalyptic destruction. The body is a kind of prison for the soul, and we'll have better ones in the by and by. And most of mankind is fit for perdition, so pervasive is evil in the world. That's a dark worldview.

    This is what happens when one makes nature profane, which is what belief in a god that lives outside of nature seems to do to too many:
    • "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position ad responsibilities)
    • "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
    • "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. This Earth will not be destroyed by a flood. . . . I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.
     
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  7. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    You have not.

    A fair picture would not utterly overlook and ignore non-evil aspects of a species.

    A fair picture would not be guilty of extreme over-generalizations of an entire species either.

    Humans are easily my least favorite species. I often wax misanthropic. But even *I* am saying you are not making a fair assessment.
     
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  8. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    You misunderstand me, I cherish nature and think it should be protected (and indeed restored)

    Because I value a love of nature as a virtue

    Hence I believe that humankind's destruction of nature is evil

    I believe that God the creator is separate from nature, his creation. But that his creation belongs to him, and not to us. And that it is against his will for us to trash it

    Humankind is an emergent property of all humans

    It is greater than the sum of its parts

    Its nature is I believe evil

    Even though in day-to-day life there are many good, lovely people out there
     
  9. Soandso

    Soandso Member

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    If you've already made up your mind that humans are evil beings, what do you hope to achieve by asking those same evil beings to change your mind? Honestly, they could all just be lying to you or trying to trick you since it's part of their evil nature. Looks like you win
     
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  10. F1fan

    F1fan Veteran Member

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    You make a lot over-generalized assertions here, and little to no context. There are a lot of topics here that sociology and psychology works to describe and explain. The social science do not use the word evil, they use more objective terms.

    Well, our solar system is way out on the edge of an arm of our galaxy, so we are on the "other side of the tracks" as the universe goes. I doubt we are so special that other life out there knows or cares about us. Even as negative as your post is it still suggests a sort of significance to the universe that is absurd.


    OK, from the assumption of a God existing to a degree that he sends a jesus to save humans, my question is why would God create the world in a way that would result in humans needing to be saved at all? If God was competent and moral from the start it would create the world he wants.


    Only because religions seldom make sense.

    Why is it believable that a God would create a fallen world and then care that it was fallen? This way of thinking is a huge flaw in Christian doctrine. Some claim that it is Satan that caused the Fall, but that only begs the question: why the **** did god create Satan? Is God this stupid that he did not understand the trouble Satan would cause, or just a sociopath?
     
    #10 F1fan, Jan 23, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023
  11. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    I believe that there are many non-evil members of humankind but that they lack influence

    They exist in spite of humankind's evil nature

    The (evil) system is very much against them

    It is not humans I dislike, it is humankind - the outcome of the collective actions (and inactions) of many many humans

    I think that humankind as it currently exists is bad for individual humans and bad for the planet too

    But how on Earth might humankind be reformed? For the good of the planet and for the good of other humans?

    That's the question

    And I have my own religious opinions on this matter
     
  12. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    I don't believe all humans are evil

    But I do believe that humankind as a phenomenon is evil
     
  13. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Nope. You can act moral the next second and it doesn't change your status (which is always n/a).
    And most humans act good most of the time, so even if you'd sum up the actions, humans would come out as "good".
     
  14. Soandso

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    If you had to take a stab at how many humans are evil vs. the good ones, where do you think the percentage lies?
     
  15. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    Exploitative?
    Destructive?
    Selfish?
    Short-Sighted?

    Me too, but I think that were we to become an inter-stellar civilisation that we would be bad news for any beings out there who are less advanced than us

    Consider the scenario in the Avatar films, I think that's how it would play out, it would be colonialism all over again if we had the chance

    Granted, this would probably never happen but I think that's how it would be, given our history
     
  16. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    I'd disagree

    I think that each of us has an objective moral credit rating, based on a scale which has "Evil" at one end and "Good" on the other

    It's just that no other humans have direct access to the objective moral credit rating of other individuals so it can be very difficult to judge others and treat them accordingly

    And for the record, I believe that very few humans are evil and that most are somewhat good

    Humans mostly act "good" most of the time as if they didn't society couldn't function, it requires conformity and a a part of conformity involves being civil and peaceful

    The systems and structures human interactions produce are I believe are depraved and absurd, be is Capitalism or Socialism

    And it is these systems and structures that do evil
     
  17. F1fan

    F1fan Veteran Member

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    Among other words.

    And if you are Christian, this is exactly as God created.


    Doubtful. Haven't you seen Star Trek? I think the objective approach they portray is accurate.

    That would be Christo-Capitalism well after the Star Trek missions. Christians have a history of believing they are entitled to anything despite indigenous people, and have little concern for the "savages" that stand in their way.

    And why is our history the way it is if you believe there is a God behind it all?
     
  18. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    I'm not a young-Earth creationist and I believe that humans evolved but according to the creation account of my religion God did create the world as he wanted, which was characterised by having its human population live in blissful communion with him but that human free-will lead to the end of this state of affairs.

    In today's terms: They chose the red pill.

    I believe this is a metaphor for humans at some point ceasing to live in a state of nature, and instead becoming more socially organised.

    It is social organisation that I think is evil. Not humans.

    I believe that Jesus will save us from The System which has developed and that our close relationship with God will eventually be somehow restored

    Because one one hand he wanted his creation to be realistic yet on the other he does care for us. This makes for a very messy and conflicted situation.

    I believe "fallen" is a metaphor for "civilised" - e.g. living in settlements, making buildings, practicing agriculture, pottery, domesticating animals, working bronze, devising systems of writing etc. - basically, becoming organised

    God wanting to rescue us from a fallen state therefore means God wanting to rescue us from the means by which we are currently organised

    Here is my train of thought:

    fallen = developed/civilised
    developed/civilised = The System
    The System = evil

    I believe Jesus will free us from the system that humankind has developed, which is anti-human, anti-God, and anti-planet

    Once this happens The System will be God's system, not humankind's system

    Why did God create Satan? Perhaps Satan is a kind of divine civil servant who is patron of The System which developed as human civilisation became increasingly advanced?

    I don't see Satan as being pure embodied evil, I see him as morally neutral but in a position which does evil

    He has a job which has been given to him and he's doing it as best he can with only very limited powers

    That's my understanding anyway
     
  19. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    I think that humanity evolved so that those words I listed came to apply to it

    Star Trek is as fictitious as Avatar

    And yes, extra-terrestrials are most likely more advanced than us, but what if some aren't?

    Yes, I am aware of that

    Basically: Human free-will

    And the way The System works
     
  20. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Hey God, what went wrong?
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    Where was your sample taken - America? :oops:
     
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