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How?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Thank you. I think my confusion is probably a foregone conclusion.

You say he communicates with you. Does he communicate outside the bible as well?

I know books dont save. People communicate with spirits all the time. Different signs of communicatio such as nature and experiences we interpret through our lens and beliefs; that, I understand.

But, if someone/jesus talked with you-as in told you he loves you, saved you, etc... would you know this without the bible?

How did he communicate these very specific emotions and motives to you (unless he doesnt exist apart from the bible?)

For me, He does. I don't think it is limited to me as His capacity to connect is multi-faceted. He can speak through His word, like someone reading a love letter. But there are other methods too.

You are right in that books don't save but couldn't we say that, (as an instruction book), it can show us the way? I do think the instruction book is important as it provides a plumb-line to make sure that someone isn't impersonating Him (another spirit).

He has spoken to me in dreams, in visions, twice in what I would call an audible voice (though the voice isn't literal but rather hearing his voice but without using your physical ears. It is multi-faceted in His capacity--so this is just a couple of ways I'm sure.

It is a short of the long of it.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
That went over my head.

Gods love for you is a feeling you have?
How do You tell the difference between, say, for your children and that of god?

What do you mean: that doesn't mean god doesn't love you enough....do you feel gods thoughts?

If it's hard to discribe, how can you tell the difference between your feeling about god and gods feeling for you? (Internal vs external source of love)?
The baptism of the holy Spirit is when God comes and lives inside of you. Occupying the same space as your own human spirit. This gives you access to the "mind of Christ". You do feel some of God's thoughts as He shares them with you.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The baptism of the holy Spirit is when God comes and lives inside of you. Occupying the same space as your own human spirit. This gives you access to the "mind of Christ". You do feel some of God's thoughts as He shares them with you.

That is odd. I wouldn't know how to ask how. You can hear and feel gods thoughts without the bible?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Thank you. That, I find odd only because god is not defined by sacred text. He exists apart from it. So, I would assume he has the ability to speak to anyone even to those who dont have the bible.

Sounds like god doesnt exist unless you experience his words through the bible? (God is the bible?)

I'm not sure that is totally true. Is what I say from my mouth not an expression of who I am? I wouldn't say my person exists apart from what I say but rather my words are an outward expression of who I am.

A Last Will and Testament are very much a part of the person who expressed it and is followed as if the person was there. IMO.

If someone else came and said "That part of the inheritance is mine" yet it wasn't found in the Last Will and Testament, one could say that the person's views are wrong.

Thus the Last Will and New Testament of Jesus Christ is very much part of and is the very expression of who He is and is used so as to delineate what does belong to him and what doesn't.

So, if He said "It is the thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy but I have come to give life and that more abundantly", it help the person know whether some other spirit comes with a different gospel is actually His voice or not. If an angel or another spirit comes and says, "I am sending you sickness to teach you something, it is I, Jesus Christ", the Bible would help us understand that it wasn't from Him.

So I don't think you can separate the two. They work in conjunction.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Sorry, I think that is not true. But maybe you could explain what do you mean with that claim.

It depends.

Suppose I never heard of Jesus and the so called Good News.
Suppose also that I carried a honorable life full of good works, helping the needy, and doing all the things you would identify in a very good person.

Alas, since I never heard of Jesus, I will never be able to accept Him as Lord and savior, obviously.

Will I go to hell?

Ciao

- viole
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Like art to his artist
I'm not sure that is totally true. Is what I say from my mouth not an expression of who I am? I wouldn't say my person exists apart from what I say but rather my words are an outward expression of who I am.

Depends. My whole life is what I say and do is not an expression of me. It's physically draining. But, personal experiences aside, yeah. I see that. We're we differ, though, is the nature of god. In human terms, yes, ones words in general are a reflection of the person..but with god, I would think he talks to you directly. Why need a will when the person can tell you directly so it's not mistranslated?

A Last Will and Testament are very much a part of the person who expressed it and is followed as if the person was there. IMO.

True.. But that person has died. From what I know, jesus and god are alive. That's the difference.

If someone else came and said "That part of the inheritance is mine" yet it wasn't found in the Last Will and Testament, one could say that the person's views are wrong.

Well. This has many variables involved, but ideally ones will should reflect ones wishes.

Thus the Last Will and New Testament of Jesus Christ is very much part of and is the very expression of who He is and is used so as to delineate what does belong to him and what doesn't.

I can see that. Wouldnt it be, I guess, better if you spoke with god directly? I mean, without the bible, would you have god's Word? Are you saved without god's will and testament? (Lower case) I mean, Word doesn't mean something written. It means a promise. U.S. Law requires paperwork, but ideally a promise isn't confirmed by signature but by ones relationship with the deceased. Ideally. That's why you got so many family fights on who gets what in the will. Too much focus on paperwork and not the wish of the deceased whose directions were given alive in context and content of the relationship of those he left.

So, if He said "It is the thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy but I have come to give life and that more abundantly", it help the person know whether some other spirit comes with a different gospel is actually His voice or not. If an angel or another spirit comes and says, "I am sending you sickness to teach you something, it is I, Jesus Christ", the Bible would help us understand that it wasn't from Him.

So I don't think you can separate the two. They work in conjunction.

It does. I just feel the relationship and prayer comes first. The bible should be confirmed by christ not christ confirmed by the bible. Reminds me of a verse christ quoted but it was never explained to me in how it means anything else but what is said.

john 5:39

[You] search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

People search scriptures for christ rather than christ confirming the scriptures.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
It depends.

Suppose I never heard of Jesus and the so called Good News.
Suppose also that I carried a honorable life full of good works, helping the needy, and doing all the things you would identify in a very good person.

Alas, since I never heard of Jesus, I will never be able to accept Him as Lord and savior, obviously.

Will I go to hell?

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. If you truly have been good, then you have nothing to worry.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

No one goes to hell, because had not heard of Jesus, or because heard of Jesus. It depends on is person righteous, does he have wisdom of the just, which makes person do good and right things.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

I think that also shows, person may have righteous mind, even if he has not yet heard of the Bible.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Depends. My whole life is what I say and do is not an expression of me. It's physically draining. But, personal experiences aside, yeah. I see that. We're we differ, though, is the nature of god. In human terms, yes, ones words in general are a reflection of the person..but with god, I would think he talks to you directly. Why need a will when the person can tell you directly so it's not mistranslated?

I can see that. Wouldnt it be, I guess, better if you spoke with god directly? I mean, without the bible, would you have god's Word? Are you saved without god's will and testament? (Lower case) I mean, Word doesn't mean something written. It means a promise. U.S. Law requires paperwork, but ideally a promise isn't confirmed by signature but by ones relationship with the deceased. Ideally. That's why you got so many family fights on who gets what in the will. Too much focus on paperwork and not the wish of the deceased whose directions were given alive in context and content of the relationship of those he left.
Mainly, IMV, because we have the many variables. Our own desires, our own voice, static that can blur what God is saying. Again, IF, and I say IF, Satan is a real spiritual being, one can have a spiritual experience thinking he is an angel of light, but he is of another stripe.

Then, as you not3ed, your have the family fights. So... one person said "I heard God said..." and the next said "NOPE, what I heard God say:"... how do you determine who was right?

Go to the last Will and New Testament.

True.. But that person has died. From what I know, jesus and god are alive. That's the difference.

:) Jesus died.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
That is odd. I wouldn't know how to ask how. You can hear and feel gods thoughts without the bible?
Yep ... this was prophesied in the old Testament in Joel 2:28. In the old Testament only the prophets had regular access to the holy Spirit. So that's why Joel's prophecy is so significant because he says that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh.

This is what Jeremiah was talking about in Jeremiah 31:33. God would write His law in their heart. So people obey the prompting of the holy Spirit which acts as a Law inside of them.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Mainly, IMV, because we have the many variables. Our own desires, our own voice, static that can blur what God is saying. Again, IF, and I say IF, Satan is a real spiritual being, one can have a spiritual experience thinking he is an

Without the bible, do you trust yourself that what you experience is from god and not you?

Then, as you not3ed, your have the family fights. So... one person said "I heard God said..." and the next said "NOPE, what I heard God say:"...

Go to the last Will and New Testament

Since everyone's spiritual experience is unique, so also the will and testament to which each person (and translator and...) reads in their own way. So, since christ is still alive (right?) I'd assume let the spirit confirm the bible not the bible the spirit. Trust gods spirit in you before the interpretation of his spirit.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yep ... this was prophesied in the old Testament in Joel 2:28. In the old Testament only the prophets had regular access to the holy Spirit. So that's why Joel's prophecy is so significant because he says that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh.

This is what Jeremiah was talking about in Jeremiah 31:33. God would write His law in their heart. So people obey the prompting of the holy Spirit which acts as a Law inside of them.

I know the bible says you can. That's a given. How does god speak to You without the bible or can he?

Job etc have their experiences, and yours?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. If you truly have been good, then you have nothing to worry.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

No one goes to hell, because had not heard of Jesus, or because heard of Jesus. It depends on is person righteous, does he have wisdom of the just, which makes person do good and right things.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

I think that also shows, person may have righteous mind, even if he has not yet heard of the Bible.

Ok, now suppose the same person hears of Jesus, but does not buy the whole story about Him.

Will she still go to Heaven?

Ciao

- fiole
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think that also shows, person may have righteous mind, even if he has not yet heard of the Bible.

Why, though?

According to the bible, a person who does not have the righteous mind of god (who isn't motored by god), is unrighteous. So, since non believers don't have god as their foundation, we aren't righteous.

We cannot benefit from a gift we never opened. That's what jesus got pis/angry for. People who put what they do as it that earns them a ticket to salvation.

If that person doesn't have faith in christ, what he does is unrighteous and he deeds mean nothing.

How can you benefit from god when what you do is not from nor for god but from and for self?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
.. According to the bible, a person who does not have the righteous mind of god (who isn't motored by god), is unrighteous…

Please show where is that said in the Bible?

If that person doesn't have faith in christ, what he does is unrighteous and he deeds mean nothing.

I think that is not entirely true, because:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

That shows, person who has not heard of Jesus, can be counted righteous, if he shows he has wisdom of the just, right understanding, which makes him do right actions. The actions are not the reason, they are only the result of the mind. It is like, good tree produces good fruit and bad tree produces bad fruit. By fruits it can be known who is righteous. Lies are for example bad fruit and show that person is probably not righteous.

And actually, if person obeys God’s will, he is faithful to God and Jesus, even if he doesn’t understand it yet. :)
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Ok, now suppose the same person hears of Jesus, but does not buy the whole story about Him.

Will she still go to Heaven?

Jesus answers:


If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.

John 12:47-48

It is not about believing, but receiving. And I understand that means, if you don’t understand, then that is the real problem and shows lack of righteousness.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Please show where is that said in the Bible?

Dont mean to be rude, but are you serious???? I hope you dont think because I am not christian, Im ignorant of scripture.

According to the bible, a person who does not have the righteous mind of god (who isn't motored by god), is unrighteous…​

A person who does not have a righteous mind is called unrighteous.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Romans 2:8
1 John 5:17

A person who has not righteousness (a person who sins against god) is called un-righteous

Those who have righteousness (in christ), are considered people of god.

Not my opinion. The bible is built on righteous and unrighteousness of people who follow or dont follow god.

Is there something you are asking?

The bible in this topic is very blunt.

That shows, person who has not heard of Jesus, can be counted righteous, if he shows he has wisdom of the just, right understanding, which makes him do right actions. The actions are not the reason, they are only the result of the mind. It is like, good tree produces good fruit and bad tree produces bad fruit. By fruits it can be known who is righteous. Lies are for example bad fruit and show that person is probably not righteous.

And actually, if person obeys God’s will, he is faithful to God and Jesus, even if he doesn’t understand it yet. :)

Righteous Philippians 3:9

You are talking about pride of the unrighteous not righteousness of god through the people making the person righteous on gods accord not his own.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
A person is righteous through god since god is righteous.

A person who does not believe in god is not righteous himself because god is not with him.

Righteous meaning a persons relationship with god makes him Special (I guess) in the eyes of his lord. He shares in the lord's rigtheousness.

Those who have pride and dont follow god are considered unrighteous. They dont share in the lords rightness so they dont share and cant claim themselves righteous with god.

All is through god.

The whole bible lets believers share in gods love and so forth. If you are not righteous in christ, who are you following and why?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Jesus answers:


If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.

John 12:47-48

It is not about believing, but receiving. And I understand that means, if you don’t understand, then that is the real problem and shows lack of righteousness.

I thought amongs his saying was not to judge. But in this saying he is saying that someone elsewould judge if we don’t listen. The latter necessarily being someone who does not listen to his saying, either.. Which, again, would entail that the latter will also be judged by another who does not listen. And so on, ad infinitum. :)

See, who ever wrote thos books might have been enormous righteous, but had no clue how to write logically consistent stories.

Ciao

- viole
 
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