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Featured How was god created?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JJ50, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    You don't say...
     
  2. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    At least you accept nature... Is it because you saw a forest?
     
  3. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    I do... as does all of the available evidence on the subject.
     
  4. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Search the etymology of 'nature'.
     
  5. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    I just did... did you have a point?
     
  6. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    yup. nature and all it's laws are born this way. when something is born, it needs to have a start. :)
     
  7. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    "God" was always there -but that does not mean he always existed as a complex creator.
    People have assumed that about God -but it is never actually stated in scripture.
    Actually, much scripture indicates that God developed.

    The confusion likely comes from words like "eternal". Whether we consider God or anything else, there could never have been absolute nothing.
    Something "just was".

    Generally speaking, some things are only possible after the development of self-awareness, creativity, etc., and some things must precede and inevitably lead to the development of such.
    Some believe this necessarily happened after the singularity/big bang, but even the singularity which would specifically become the universe, the atoms, planets, physical life, etc. is not indicative of the "simplicity" to be expected "in the beginning". It is/was also specifically purposeful.

    If we take the statement "I AM THAT AM" to mean "I AM THAT WHICH EXISTS" -and also consider the following... I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come— the Almighty.... and then consider the fact that the universe -the creation -once was not -and required conception, planning, execution, etc.... we see that what is indicated is development.
    At the very least, God developed AS a creator inasmuch as he developed the creation.

    If "of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end", it begs the question of how little was once governed in the past.

    God -the "most high" -can be "eternal" inasmuch as he is the sum of all that has always existed -but that does not mean he always existed in a state which would enable him to declare "I AM THAT AM" -even if that has "always" been true. If you think about it, we are ourselves before WE develop to that point -but we are no less ourselves!

    "Evolution" in its most basic sense may actually be more true of God than anything which was produced from atoms.
    "God" -everything -may have inevitably developed self-awareness, creativity, etc. -from the most simple state possible.
    Why could it not happen on an all-inclusive scale? Why would it not INEVITABLY happen?

    An eternal God -one which "always" existed -of any description -could not possibly have decided THAT he would exist -OR upon his own basic nature. The most basic components of reality -and things such as logic, math, etc. -the things which cannot be untrue -would BE God's nature.

    As for why God is necessarily perfect, I would imagine it is because he HAD TO BE in order to move forward. Whereas we have many buffers in place which allow us to err without immediate consequence, such would not have been in place in the beginning (except, perhaps, in the most simple sense that the most basic nature of that which exists cannot be changed or destroyed)

    Anything which is complex must be built from that which is least complex -or the most simple things possible. A God which is the sum of all things developing from the most simple state possible would actually put him in a position to have Godlike attributes -omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. (though perhaps not as we may understand those words). In order to BE most high, God would HAVE TO have initially been most simple.

    That would mean everything -even ourselves -is composed of "God".

    That would make this statement quite literal.... "On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you." ;)
     
    #47 Etritonakin, Oct 11, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    Were I a theist, which I'm not, I'd defend the origins of God with the same argument I hypothesize for mass-energy.

    That hypothesis is along the following lines: that

    1 ─ as far as we know, mass-energy can neither be created nor destroyed (actually that's a datum)
    2 ─ before the universe existed, mass-energy existed
    3 ─ the contents of the Big Bang consisted of mass-energy
    4 ─ accordingly our universe, its dimensions, things, forces and phenomena are either qualities of mass-energy or effects of it.
    5 ─ therefore time is a quality or effect of mass-energy and exists because mass-energy exists, not vice versa.

    So on this formulation, God can neither be created or destroyed, pre-existed the universe, and is the creator of time, which exists because God exists, not vice versa.

    The difference between the two arguments is that while the hypothesis doesn't contradict what we presently know,

    ─ there's no coherent concept of a real god, one with objective existence, and
    ─ if we ignore that for the sake of argument, God is taken to exist as a sentient and purposeful being, an enormously complicating factor which Occam would strike down in this context.

    That's not all, but it'll do.
     
    #48 blü 2, Oct 12, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is just simply saying "god was always there"
    It is recorded in the epoch age Bible that "God is eternal"
    And there is only one true God

    Jeremiah 10:10 New International Version (NIV)
    But the Lord is the true God;
    he is the living God, the eternal King.
    When he is angry, the earth trembles;
    the nations cannot endure his wrath.

    eternal.jpg

    Isaiah 40:28 New International Version (NIV)
    Do you not know?
    Have you not heard?
    The Lord is the everlasting God,
    the Creator of the ends of the earth.
    He will not grow tired or weary,
    and his understanding no one can fathom.
     
  10. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Words, words, words, with no evidence to back them up.
     
  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I'm a tree hugger, I never saw forests.
     
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  12. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    God is created in the crux of life and death where the self and not-self converge.

    It is fermented in the blending of fruits from the two trees of Eden.

    It appears while hanging on the cross of Yggdrasil, observing with an eye and no-eye.

    It is heard in the whispering of the Holy Spirit Awen.

    It is formed in the dancing of Christ to the music of Pan's flute.

    It is gleaned from the sense of Science and the nonsense of Poetry.

    It is mashed together in the battle of Romanticism and the Enlightenment.
     
  13. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    There is little explanation in scripture about what God was doing before deciding to create the universe, etc. -so we really don't have a detailed scriptural reference for what "eternal" means.
    Having always existed does not describe the state in which it was so at any point.

    You have posted an English definition of the word, but in Hebrew and Greek, the definitions of words are not always so strict. For example.... (bold mine)

    Original Word: עוֹלָם
    Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
    Transliteration: olam
    Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
    Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity
    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    from an unused word
    Definition
    long duration, antiquity, futurity

    NASB Translation
    ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1).

    Because we communicate in our languages -which were created by man from a perspective of relative ignorance -and scripture is also in our languages -there is room for misunderstanding.

    Eventually, God will give us a pure language from his complete perspective.....
    Zeph 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
     
  14. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Vestigial Member
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    I'm afraid I need a better definition of "god." I'm struggling to think of anything that isn't an "entity in its own right," at least from the human perspective.
     
  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    God was created by people themselves of whom pulls it's strings, making it talk and do things.
     
  16. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    That is how I see it.
     
  17. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Maybe god pooped himself out into existence like a reverse ouroboros.
     
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  18. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think it's sad that you would expect anyone to give you an answer to such a question. Don't you know that to be a human is to be able to ask questions that are unanswerable?
     
  19. MJ Bailey

    MJ Bailey Member

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    IMO it is quite as simple as understanding eternity or omnipotence. Both are quite logical yet very difficult to understand yet still exist. Not everything that shares existence needs to have a creator
     
  20. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    There you go.
     
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